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Rank: Gunner
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Hmmm... I did up the Jdpz IV L/70 card, but there was an earlier version. The Jdpz IV L/48. This used a similar gun to the Stug IV and the Pzkw IV. So, the stats could be:
3/4/2/5, Assault Gun, Blitzkrieg, but at what points cost? 20pts?
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Rank: Gunner
Posts: 13
Was thanked: 2 time(s) in 2 post(s)
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Rank: Commander
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Originally Posted by: OldGuy59 Hmmm... I did up the Jdpz IV L/70 card, but there was an earlier version. The Jdpz IV L/48. This used a similar gun to the Stug IV and the Pzkw IV. So, the stats could be:
3/4/2/5, Assault Gun, Blitzkrieg, but at what points cost? 20pts? In my opinion? 4 points less than the Jgdpz IV L/70.
Cheers
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Rank: Commander
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Using the thread "cracking the code" as a guide, 19pts works when compared to the L70 version at 24 pts.
Note that this seems really cheap when compared to the StugIiIg. Using cracking the code, your Jgpz IV L/48 should cost 8 pts more than the Stug...23 pts! Note though that when you compare the L48 stats to the US Sherman and use cracking the code as a guide, 23 pts is the answer. Gung ho is a powerful trait though and messes with point comparisons.
Perhaps we should be going with more like 25 pts for the L70 and 20 pts for the L48? That seems more in line with comparisons to the Sherman tanks and others....ask yourself, which would I rather use, 4 Sherman 76s or 4 JgpzIV L/70? 6-5-1-6 gung ho compared to 3-5-2-5 assault gun, blitzkrieg. I think I would prefer the flexibility of the Sherman's with the higher initiative, turrets and gung ho...but that 2 defense die certainly gives the L70 enough staying power to potentially stay stationary and use rerolls to deal out damage! So....25 pts seems about right then!
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Rank: Commander
Posts: 138
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Originally Posted by: OldGuy59 Hmmm... I did up the Jdpz IV L/70 card, but there was an earlier version. The Jdpz IV L/48. This used a similar gun to the Stug IV and the Pzkw IV. So, the stats could be:
3/4/2/5, Assault Gun, Blitzkrieg, but at what points cost? 20pts? Just my twopence... Raise Ini to 4. Zerstorer and me proposed -2 from original Panzer IV (JagdPanzers hull) Ini on the L/70 due to Assault Gun and long, heavy gun. L/48 version did not suffer from the latter, so methinks it should only have -1 to Ini.
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Rank: Commander
Posts: 309
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Originally Posted by: JagdWehrwolf Originally Posted by: OldGuy59 Hmmm... I did up the Jdpz IV L/70 card, but there was an earlier version. The Jdpz IV L/48. This used a similar gun to the Stug IV and the Pzkw IV. So, the stats could be:
3/4/2/5, Assault Gun, Blitzkrieg, but at what points cost? 20pts? Just my twopence... Raise Ini to 4. Zerstorer and me proposed -2 from original Panzer IV (JagdPanzers hull) Ini on the L/70 due to Assault Gun and long, heavy gun. L/48 version did not suffer from the latter, so methinks it should only have -1 to Ini. That makes sense to me....so if we go 4-5-2-5 for the L/48, we end up at 21 pts and for the L/70 we get 3-5-2-5 for 25 pts. I like this, since even with the L/48, you can't squeeze 5 of those bad boys in at 100 pts! Edited by user Monday, August 28, 2017 11:42:21 AM(UTC)
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Rank: Commander
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Now all we need is for someone to make these 2 units in plastic.
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Rank: Gunner
Posts: 13
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Originally Posted by: Zerstorer Originally Posted by: JagdWehrwolf Originally Posted by: OldGuy59 Hmmm... I did up the Jdpz IV L/70 card, but there was an earlier version. The Jdpz IV L/48. This used a similar gun to the Stug IV and the Pzkw IV. So, the stats could be:
3/4/2/5, Assault Gun, Blitzkrieg, but at what points cost? 20pts? Just my twopence... Raise Ini to 4. Zerstorer and me proposed -2 from original Panzer IV (JagdPanzers hull) Ini on the L/70 due to Assault Gun and long, heavy gun. L/48 version did not suffer from the latter, so methinks it should only have -1 to Ini. That makes sense to me....so if we go 4-5-2-5 for the L/48, we end up at 21 pts and for the L/70 we get 3-5-2-5 for 25 pts. I like this, since even with the L/48, you can't squeeze 5 of those bad boys in at 100 pts! I can't see the JdpzIV L/48 with an Att of 5. The gun isn't that good. I can see the Ini coming up a bit, but wouldn't that leave this at 20?
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Rank: Commander
Posts: 309
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Originally Posted by: OldGuy59 Originally Posted by: Zerstorer Originally Posted by: JagdWehrwolf Originally Posted by: OldGuy59 Hmmm... I did up the Jdpz IV L/70 card, but there was an earlier version. The Jdpz IV L/48. This used a similar gun to the Stug IV and the Pzkw IV. So, the stats could be:
3/4/2/5, Assault Gun, Blitzkrieg, but at what points cost? 20pts? Just my twopence... Raise Ini to 4. Zerstorer and me proposed -2 from original Panzer IV (JagdPanzers hull) Ini on the L/70 due to Assault Gun and long, heavy gun. L/48 version did not suffer from the latter, so methinks it should only have -1 to Ini. That makes sense to me....so if we go 4-5-2-5 for the L/48, we end up at 21 pts and for the L/70 we get 3-5-2-5 for 25 pts. I like this, since even with the L/48, you can't squeeze 5 of those bad boys in at 100 pts! I can't see the JdpzIV L/48 with an Att of 5. The gun isn't that good. I can see the Ini coming up a bit, but wouldn't that leave this at 20? Agreed...i had meant to write 4-4-2-5, 21 points....and of course it needs Blitzkrieg and Assault gun. I really think 21 points works well in play balance. Compared to a Stug iiig using cracking the code, the L48 should be 8 points more than the Stug and come in at 23 points but the Stug is seen by many as overly expensive. If you go with 20 points, a player could field 5 of these. They seem pretty powerful compared to a Sherman 75 that also costs 20 points. I think doctrine cards or a keyword for ambush is still needed too, but not sure how to create those and limit them to appropriate vehicles. An ambush keyword is the easier fix....+2 shooting initiative when stationary in cover would be good...I would like to see that for the Hetzer, Jgpz IV, Archer....but I suppose that should add a point or two to the cost of those vehicles. I don't think I would simply give them higher initiative numbers overall, so the ambush keyword would work better. I will try to playtest it, but my gut feel is without an initiative buff these tank destroyers won't perform as they should. Edited by user Monday, August 28, 2017 5:29:14 PM(UTC)
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Rank: Commander
Posts: 138
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Originally Posted by: Zerstorer Agreed...i had meant to write 4-4-2-5, 21 points....and of course it needs Blitzkrieg and Assault gun. I really think 21 points works well in play balance. Compared to a Stug iiig using cracking the code, the L48 should be 8 points more than the Stug and come in at 23 points but the Stug is seen by many as overly expensive. If you go with 20 points, a player could field 5 of these. They seem pretty powerful compared to a Sherman 75 that also costs 20 points.
I think doctrine cards or a keyword for ambush is still needed too, but not sure how to create those and limit them to appropriate vehicles. An ambush keyword is the easier fix....+2 shooting initiative when stationary in cover would be good...I would like to see that for the Hetzer, Jgpz IV, Archer....but I suppose that should add a point or two to the cost of those vehicles. I don't think I would simply give them higher initiative numbers overall, so the ambush keyword would work better. I will try to playtest it, but my gut feel is without an initiative buff these tank destroyers won't perform as they should. Well then, we've got: Jagdpanzer IV 4-4-2-5, Assault Gun, Blitzkrieg, Cost:21; Jagdpanzer IV/70 3-5-2-5, Assault Gun, Blitzkrieg, Cost:25; I like it. In terms of keyword vs doctrine I will firmly remain on the doctrine side. Keyword would require reprinting of all present vehicles and we know how that can go after infamous Achilles case. So picking up where we left off discussion that we had with Uthak some time ago I must say that 'Ambush' is quite difficult to balance. Allow me to break up a slight merger of Your current and my previous ideas: 'Ambush' +3 Initiative in Shooting Phase, if Stationary, and In Cover, discard this card the first time this tank takes damage, Assault Guns only. If we'd add all of those, than Cost becomes 0 and Doctrine becomes a no brainer. On the other hand scrapping any of the conditions undermines the meta behind the card. Whaddaya think?
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Do what gf9 does and give it a cost that doesn't necessarily correspond with the math, but makes the doctrine a tactical choice opposed to a given. Even one point is a cost worth considering. Edit: would Ambush's wording be compatible with Hull Gun? Edited by user Tuesday, August 29, 2017 1:16:34 AM(UTC)
| Reason: Clarification.
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Rank: Commander
Posts: 138
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Originally Posted by: CmdrRook <snip>
Edit: would Ambush's wording be compatible with Hull Gun? Most certainly not. Hull Gun is a separate keyword and RAI is to reinforce natural battlefield role of SPGs, by giving them an edge in such conditions. Also, multigun tanks like Grant/Lee (also Churchill I and Char B1 comes to mind) with the best of intentions were not suited for ambush role.
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Rank: Gunner
Posts: 14
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What #'s would you recommend for the Pantherthurm that was made with the spare Panther turret that was left?
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Rank: Commander
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I have a idea for a Card "Me Tank came from the Enemy" for 2 Points you can use a Tank from opposit Force
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Rank: Gunner
Posts: 13
Was thanked: 2 time(s) in 2 post(s)
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Originally Posted by: Jhary I have a idea for a Card "Me Tank came from the Enemy" for 2 Points you can use a Tank from opposit Force The person introducing me to Tanks suggested that anyone could use 'captured' vehicles, but they cost the same, and can't use the original force trait ability. So, a German force could use Sherman tanks, without 'Gung Ho', or a Cromwell without 'Semi-indirect Fire'. No reduction in the cost of the unit, because the capturing force is using unfamiliar equipment. Jagdpanzer cards updated and relinked above.Edited by user Tuesday, August 29, 2017 6:27:16 PM(UTC)
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Rank: Commander
Posts: 31
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Originally Posted by: OldGuy59 Originally Posted by: Jhary I have a idea for a Card "Me Tank came from the Enemy" for 2 Points you can use a Tank from opposit Force The person introducing me to Tanks suggested that anyone could use 'captured' vehicles, but they cost the same, and can't use the original force trait ability. So, a German force could use Sherman tanks, without 'Gung Ho', or a Cromwell without 'Semi-indirect Fire'. No reduction in the cost of the unit, because the capturing force is using unfamiliar equipment. Jagdpanzer cards updated and relinked above. Sorry but that makes no sense. What about "Heavy" " Fast" or "Slow" or Cautions" or "Whelled" or "aussauĺt Gun" after you all this traits are gone.
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Rank: Commander
Posts: 138
Thanks: 48 times Was thanked: 24 time(s) in 19 post(s)
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Originally Posted by: Jhary Originally Posted by: OldGuy59 Originally Posted by: Jhary I have a idea for a Card "Me Tank came from the Enemy" for 2 Points you can use a Tank from opposit Force The person introducing me to Tanks suggested that anyone could use 'captured' vehicles, but they cost the same, and can't use the original force trait ability. So, a German force could use Sherman tanks, without 'Gung Ho', or a Cromwell without 'Semi-indirect Fire'. No reduction in the cost of the unit, because the capturing force is using unfamiliar equipment. Jagdpanzer cards updated and relinked above. Sorry but that makes no sense. What about "Heavy" " Fast" or "Slow" or Cautions" or "Whelled" or "aussauĺt Gun" after you all this traits are gone. The most common idea so far for 'Beutepanzers' or Captured Tanks was to actually make a separate cards for them. For me it makes sense. Normally captured tanks were undergoing at least basic refit (radios) to be compatible with their new forces. Germans on Eastern Front were going full-on Pimp my Tank. New radios, new stowage, commander's cupolas rewelded from written off Panzers III or IVs, schurzen, the lot. So I'd go with the route of repricing a captured tank including national trait. And trying to be historically accurate I would not allow any tank to be 'captured', but that's just me. For example: Beutepanzer t-34 747(r) 4-4-1-5, Blitzkrieg, Fast, Cost: 20 Thruth be told, so far I haven't managed to definately crack the cost of National Traits hence I'm erring on overcost side. @Jhary: I believe that OldGuy only ment National Traits being lost.
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Rank: Commander
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this makes partly sense. but i woudn't allow to swape traits like gun ho for Blitzkrieg. Example a Tiger with gun ho as Beutepanzer for an american platoon woud be a game changer.
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Rank: Gunner
Posts: 13
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I think my buddy only meant the national traits. Also, the captured tank wouldn't get the new national trait, just loose the previous trait.
He was trying to keep the cheese factor down, and not have people show up with an American unit filled with British, German and Russian tanks.
So yes, you could have a captured Tiger in an American unit, but it wouldn't have either Blitzkreig, nor Gung Ho, and would still cost the same as a regular Tiger. This was to keep things simple. All the other stuff about pimpin' the tank out to work with the new nationality would be assumed. At least the radios would be changed out. But that wouldn't show up on a card, anyway.
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Rank: Commander
Posts: 31
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ok that makes now sense. my idea was that you ad a card to the captured tank with rule text. the difernce between Axis and the Allies was Axis glued a sticker on it, changed the driver seat and installed a second radio. ready for use
US and Brits took the enemy tanks appart and welded the steel on their tanks example Super Pershing rusian melted down there prize and made new Tanks canons or medals from it
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