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Okay, just for fun, I worked out an M1A2 Abrams MBT:
Init: 8
Att: 8
Def: 4
Dam: 8
Crew: 3
Keywords: Gung Ho, Fast and Heavy Tank
all of which comes to a round 80 points.
What do ya think?
Cheers.
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Originally Posted by: Raider4  Okay, just for fun, I worked out an M1A2 Abrams MBT:
Init: 8
Att: 8
Def: 4
Dam: 8
Crew: 3
Keywords: Gung Ho, Fast and Heavy Tank
all of which comes to a round 80 points.
What do ya think?
Cheers. Interesting. I could see a new trait too...maybe advanced fire control system, no speed modifier to attack dice when moving speed 1 or 2 and only -1 attack dice at speed 3. This probably should replace gung ho. I think the M1A2 should get big gun as well. It would probably be appropriate to consider some sort of modifier when hit by HEAT warheads as well, since certain weapons should get access to that kind of ammo. Why not crew 4 for this vehicle? i don't think crew ergonomics or training are subpar in any way on the M1A2. Price would go up though. Depleted Uranium ammo cards would be interesting too. A T-80 would be interesting as well.... Say 6-7-3-6, fast, big gun, fire control system (no shooting penalty at speed 1), coordinated fire? Crew 3 only, autoloader issues and training would be the reason I would give it lower initiative. Not sure how many points to rate it. Probably around 70 points. Armor also getting. hEAT round modifier...but less effective than the M1. Special ammo could include an ATGM round. Iirc, u would have to be stationary to use those, but that gives the logical rerolls. Probably a high attack dice number, 8 or 9...., but HEAT warheads. The 100 point limits are out the window though! Edited by user Thursday, September 14, 2017 1:16:55 PM(UTC)
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So, Gung Ho 2; Treat this tank as making TWO less Moves than shown on its Speed token when calculating its target's Defense dice? I ask because movement penalty adds defense, it doesn't penalize attack dice.
Here's some spitballed for relevant equipment. Someone more historically minded could correct me on card effects, or points costs, please.
Reactive armor: 5pts - Armor
When this tank suffers an Uncanceled Critical Hit, Discard this card to cancel one Critical Hit. When this tank suffers an Uncanceled Hit, discard this card and cancel two Hits.
Depleted Uranium Penetrator: 4 points - Ammo
When shooting, you may discard this card for -1 Attack. You may upgrade 1 Uncanceled Hit to a Critical Hit, or one Uncanceled Critical Hit to two Hits.
Depleted Uranium Armor: 8 points - Armor
This tank loses Fast. When defending this tank may "upgrade" one Uncanceled Critical Hit to one Uncanceled Hit.
A Deadly Gunner or John P Irwin with DU rounds could be.... Upsetting.
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Originally Posted by: CmdrRook So, Gung Ho 2; Treat this tank as making TWO less Moves than shown on its Speed token when calculating its target's Defense dice? I ask because movement penalty adds defense, it doesn't penalize attack dice.
Here's some spitballed for relevant equipment. Someone more historically minded could correct me on card effects, or points costs, please.
Reactive armor: 5pts - Armor
When this tank suffers an Uncanceled Critical Hit, Discard this card to cancel one Critical Hit. When this tank suffers an Uncanceled Hit, discard this card and cancel two Hits.
Depleted Uranium Penetrator: 4 points - Ammo
When shooting, you may discard this card for -1 Attack. You may upgrade 1 Uncanceled Hit to a Critical Hit, or one Uncanceled Critical Hit to two Hits.
Depleted Uranium Armor: 8 points - Armor
This tank loses Fast. When defending this tank may "upgrade" one Uncanceled Critical Hit to one Uncanceled Hit.
A Deadly Gunner or John P Irwin with DU rounds could be.... Upsetting.
The new trait shows off the ability of the Abrams to fire accurately on the move...I just didn't pay attention when writing. Sherman moving 2 firing at a Panzer IV moving 2 gives the Panzer IV 3 defensive die for relative movement alone. An Abrams moving at 2 firing at a T-80 moving 2 gives the T-80 2 defensive dice for relative movement alone. If that is not enough of a buff, perhaps we could also allow a tank with advanced fire control to treat speed 1 firing as stationary, including rerolls? Honestly, gung ho is way overpowered in Tanks WW2. The reactive armor, as I understand it, is made more for dealing with HEAT rounds than kinetic penetrators. Your depleted Uranium ammo and armor seems reasonable....but if HVAP adds a shooting die, shouldn't a DU round be even better? Perhaps +1 attack die and convert an uncanceled hit to a crit? The Western tanks such as the Leopard 2, Challenger 2, M1A2, Leclerc and Merkava should be awesome tanks....but very expensive. Edited by user Thursday, September 14, 2017 4:54:40 PM(UTC)
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hehe. are you looking to make an abrams for an entire futuristic version or as addon for the current game?
in a documentary they were saying it has an effective armour thickness (reactive armor) of like 380mm and pen of over 450mm at like a mile range. whilst firing like 15+ rounds per minute with 0.002m dispersion on 100m together with advanced targeting systems, night sights etc etc etc. (don't quote me - general message was it was absolutely effin monstreous compared to anything build in WW2 (and the next 35+ years as well))...
Men Of War had a modder who made 100 Maus tanks fight one Abrams with implemented stats. (not to quote this as historic fact/reference - not at all), but the abrams killed like 30 maus (one shots) before they got in range and then got battered w/o penetration for another 2-3 minutes killing 1 maus per shot.
this being said I would think the abrams in this meta would be a candidate for like 500points 20, 20, 6, 20 stats
--> realisticly that thing would prolly attack any number of WW2 tanks at night at a range of 2-3 miles and wipe them out at any angle, at any speed at 1roundpertank, in any circumstance. even when spotted it would race backwards at 60kph, maintaining its 2mile range and keep firing unhindered at 100% accuracy.
just to throw in my 2 cents
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Yeah, modern armor has enough trouble breaking Abrams, I wouldn't try to balance them against older generations of tank, uthak
With a +1 to attack, DU rounds would have to be prohibitively expensive to avoid being a "gimme", but I'm not opposed. 8 points for the +0, 12 for a +1. I reasoned that hvap was substantially faster than typical ap rounds to be a demonstrable improvement to firepower. Du rounds are not a paradigm shift above modern rounds, just a special payload in effect.
As far as reactive armor is concerned, we don't yet have he rounds, but if we did, they'd probably convert a hit to a crit, so I see the logic in only blocking a crit. I'd still keep it at 5 points, though it makes schurzen obsolete.
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Originally Posted by: Uthak hehe. are you looking to make an abrams for an entire futuristic version or as addon for the current game? It started of as an exercise to advance the game into the 50's, and I just kept going.
So, an M46 is basically an M26 with a better engine, so maybe +1 Init. And an M47 is an M46 with the gun from the 'Super Pershing', so an Attack of 6. Then an M48 is better armoured . . . etc.
No new invented rules or keywords - I lack the imagination to do this convincingly.
Just gradually increasing various stats until I got to the M1A2.
Make it playable, rather than realistic.Originally Posted by: Uthak in a documentary they were saying it has an effective armour thickness (reactive armor) of like 380mm and pen of over 450mm at like a mile range. whilst firing like 15+ rounds per minute with 0.002m dispersion on 100m together with advanced targeting systems, night sights etc etc etc. (don't quote me - general message was it was absolutely effin monstreous compared to anything build in WW2 (and the next 35+ years as well))...
Men Of War had a modder who made 100 Maus tanks fight one Abrams with implemented stats. (not to quote this as historic fact/reference - not at all), but the abrams killed like 30 maus (one shots) before they got in range and then got battered w/o penetration for another 2-3 minutes killing 1 maus per shot.
this being said I would think the abrams in this meta would be a candidate for like 500points 20, 20, 6, 20 stats I worked that out to about 412 points actually . . . :-)Originally Posted by: Uthak --> realisticly that thing would prolly attack any number of WW2 tanks at night at a range of 2-3 miles and wipe them out at any angle, at any speed at 1roundpertank, in any circumstance. even when spotted it would race backwards at 60kph, maintaining its 2mile range and keep firing unhindered at 100% accuracy.
just to throw in my 2 cents Completely agree. Frankly it would likely run out of ammo - only 42 rounds, and not all of them will be anti-tank - before any anything got close enough to even hit it, let alone damage it.
Cheers.Edited by user Saturday, September 16, 2017 3:56:33 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Raider4 It started of as an exercise to advance the game into the 50's, and I just kept going. Actually, that's not quite correct.
It really started off as an exercise in working out post-war tank guns, and grew from there. So:
US:
90mm (M26/M46) = Attack 5
90mm (M47/M48) = 6
105mm (M48/M60/M1) = 7
120mm (M1A1/M1A2 (and Leopard 2)) = 8
Brit:
17-pdr (Centurion) = 5
20-pdr (Centurion) = 6
105mm (Centurion (also S-Tank & Leopard 1) = 7
120mm (Chieftain/Challenger) = 7 plus 'Big Gun' keyword
Soviet:
100mm (T-55) = 6
115mm (T-62) = 7
125mm (T-64/T-72 onwards) = 8
As I said, just a bit of fun, and trying not to make big leaps.
Cheers.
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Originally Posted by: Raider4 Originally Posted by: Uthak --> realisticly that thing would prolly attack any number of WW2 tanks at night at a range of 2-3 miles and wipe them out at any angle, at any speed at 1roundpertank, in any circumstance. even when spotted it would race backwards at 60kph, maintaining its 2mile range and keep firing unhindered at 100% accuracy.
just to throw in my 2 cents Completely agree. Frankly it would likely run out of ammo - only 42 rounds, and not all of them will be anti-tank - before any anything got close enough to even hit it, let alone damage it.
Cheers. haha right on. lets rephrase: the abrams would destroy its 42 targets (I could imagine that todays high explosives are more than capable to hit WW2 rolled steel like ship-artillery), race back to base, reload, hit its target again before they even closed in on its first position.... or more so: abrams fires 8 rounds before the called-upon tomahawks, drone dopped air-ground missiles and attack helicopters blow the whole area to bits and pieces.
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