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Andrew at Tanks HQ  
#1 Posted : Wednesday, July 05, 2017 12:17:55 PM(UTC)
Andrew at Tanks HQ

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Let’s talk tactics!

In this week’s article I asked the question, how would you defeat a super tank list?


For example check out this week’s featured list submitted by Uthak
http://tanks.gf9games.co...entryid/184/Default.aspx

If your opponent has a tank with all the bells and whistles how would you take it down?
Zerstorer  
#2 Posted : Wednesday, July 05, 2017 3:26:46 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Andrew at Tanks HQ Go to Quoted Post
Let’s talk tactics!

In this week’s article I asked the question, how would you defeat a super tank list?


For example check out this week’s featured list submitted by Uthak
http://tanks.gf9games.co...entryid/184/Default.aspx

If your opponent has a tank with all the bells and whistles how would you take it down?

Off the top of my head, I would roll out a T-34 swarm with assassin drivers. Focus fire on one target and use coordinated fire to get some hits through and then use the assassins to pick off key crew members.

Edited by user Wednesday, July 05, 2017 3:29:32 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

thanks 1 user thanked Zerstorer for this useful post.
CmdrRook on 7/5/2017(UTC)
Bgongon  
#3 Posted : Wednesday, July 05, 2017 6:21:58 PM(UTC)
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I once used a Super Pershing with John P. Irwin and an assassin driver so I could get rid of some tough Russian crew. I was a bit unsure if the combo was allowed, but on rolling a critical I can trade the crit for two hits which then can be used to knock out a crew member. The assassin also works normally so I could knock out crew from two different types of results. All the stopping power would be loaded onto one tank, but with high defense and lots of attack dice the Super Pershing seemed like a good candidate for this setup.
Uthak  
#4 Posted : Wednesday, July 05, 2017 8:47:53 PM(UTC)
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I think the generally best way to kill any tank by throwing redicoulus amounts of attack dice. picture Jpanther, stationary carius, bloodthirsty, tungsten, flanking and short distance... Will never happen but what if:

9 attacks with -3 on enemy armor... a dream./nightmare for anyone depending on perspective

snap back to reality, I think there are many creative and ever new ways to fight super heavies (or anything), the reason why this game is such fun. there is no one way to do it, that being said, here some ideas to kill big guns:

my personal favorite

Jagdpanther
Otto Carius
Tungsten Shot
(+Tungsten Shot)
(+Resourcefull Loader)
Sharpshooter Gunner
(+any other upgrades you may like/need)

This baby rolls up at 53/56+ points, so by no means a cheap counter, but it packs a vicious punch. Assuming you play it right you will stay stationary all turns or not fire at all staying unseen while moving up, and if possible stay in cover/have a shield-tank to provide cover.

8 attacks for 2 turns
-1 armour for enemy
stationary re-roll if need be or when double-1 (tungsten)
first crit draws 2 cards and selects the crit you need.

/// Against the other list I posted this wouldn't fare to well, as the tiger would constantly hide 100% behind its shield-tank (which would most likely die on the approach - but that's its purpose), not shoot at all, but then swoop out into close range and oneshot this jagdpanther from the side with its ridiculous movement ini... (also this build doesn't do to well against swarmers/cheap tanks, as they just riddle the expensive jagdpanther down, while its not killing them fast enough)

The T-34 list is interesting indeed, specially amassed assassins could really rattle the cage as the list is built around different crew members across my tanks. Overall I think the T34s are somewhat to slow to deal with the Tiger in my other list though, as it will outrun and outmaneuver the much slower T-34's and most likely only ever have to face 1-2 at a time and kill them a rate close to 1 per turn. for example when the t34s would be chasing the tiger around a house in close quarters: the tiger would maneuver every turn to only face one opponent, and at close range, denying LOS to 2-3 other tanks while hitting his one target like a truck.

Another swarm list I dislike (for being OP to the point of boring), but hugely (!!) effective at messing up super-heavy tank lists (really anything though) is my quad-M36-cautious list. 4 x M36 all shooting at initiative 11 and re-rolling their cautious moves while throwing 4x 6 attacks around corners.

Edited by user Wednesday, July 05, 2017 9:00:55 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

CmdrRook  
#5 Posted : Thursday, July 06, 2017 2:41:42 AM(UTC)
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Reconsider your tone, James. Gf9 got their feet wet as a company making third party accessories for the GW-crowd, and I would never have heard of them if they hadn't.

For the topic at hand, however, a swarm of light tanks with Assassin would make short work of any super tank. M10 any variety, the m36, and the Pak wagen are all very capable, and I've used the latter combination to bust a Super Pershing list.
Kelvin  
#6 Posted : Thursday, July 06, 2017 2:44:58 AM(UTC)
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Hes got a point about heros though. I play LOTR and theres a few heroes that can royally f*** an army up.

Dont like the tards thing though, thats a bit mean man.
Kelvin Griffiths, Attack Wing Captain, Lord Of Rings Hero and Tank Commander. Sort of...
Uthak  
#7 Posted : Thursday, July 06, 2017 3:20:02 AM(UTC)
Uthak

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yeah, specially in this game where even the biggest tank can be reliably taken out when putting enough thought in your list and playstyle.

A very simple technique is throwing a D6 to determine your mission at random before the game starts but after both players have chosen/compiled their lists. A lonely super pershing de facto stands no chance with any mission that has 2 or more mission objectives, easy as that. then you can ignore the tank all together. Even on a single objective consider the usually slow speed of SP's, if he has to move to the center/your half of the board onto an objective, stay hidden while holding said objective. when the monster comes close enough just swarm him and use his most dominant weakness, the missing heavy rule. get behind him and his base armor 3 will be 1.

But there is so many strategies/lists you can make, I wouldn't just "not play against" them. They are nowhere as OP as "OP" lists that can be built in most other tabletops.

////
In Example: Warhammer 40k these days allows for overkill massive "deathstars"-called units/heroes that cant reliably be beaten, the trick is not always in trying so, but throwing a vast, cheap or just indestructible unit at them to tie them up and effectively out of the game, even if just for 1-3 turns - no matter that they will slowly slaughter your guys. Or let the killer-unit roam around and kind of ignore them while killing everything vital he has around them, leaving the sole super-unit picking off 1 of your guys per turn, but w/o having a carry-effect on the game.
given: WH40K is way more reliant on mission objective missions, where I wish Tanks was too, as diverse mission objectives (at random) counterfeit ever-same line ups and call for diverse and adaptable game play - but that's something you can easily instate at your group/store to make the game more challenging and give the super pershings out there something to think about.
Tally - Ho  
#8 Posted : Thursday, July 06, 2017 1:28:38 PM(UTC)
Tally - Ho

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Originally Posted by: james101 Go to Quoted Post
Easy.
Don't play against it.
I'm not interested in hero hammer in TANKS. Keep that crap to the GW'tards


I'm a little curious how that works. Do you show up at the game store and if you do not like your opponents list you go home? If so; why play at all?
Personally I kind of like a challenge.

On a side note; I am not sure name calling is all that necessary. (And no; I do not play GW so it is not about me so much as being respectful.)


Tally - Ho  
#9 Posted : Thursday, July 06, 2017 1:37:57 PM(UTC)
Tally - Ho

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In my head I think that Zerstorer has the right idea for playing my Russians. Quantity vs Quality with the right crew.

Yet something in me wants to take this on in a different way.

My list would be:
1. IS-85
Zinovy Kolobanov
Skilled Mechanic
Aggressive Loader

2. IS-85
Vasily Krysov
Cunning Commander

3. T-34/76

Hopefully my IS-85's can take enough punishment to weather this storm.

And may the odds ever be in my favor.

P.S. I think I will see if a friend of mine wants to try this battle out.
CmdrRook  
#10 Posted : Friday, July 07, 2017 4:40:18 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: james101 Go to Quoted Post

difference between challenge and boring as hell lists with no imagination



Seems that it is the person incapable of building a list to counter a super tank that lacks imagination, as everyone in this discussion seem to have plenty of great ideas.

Well... almost everyone. >.>
Tally - Ho  
#11 Posted : Friday, July 07, 2017 5:38:30 AM(UTC)
Tally - Ho

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Originally Posted by: james101 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Tally - Ho Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: james101 Go to Quoted Post
Easy.
Don't play against it.
I'm not interested in hero hammer in TANKS. Keep that crap to the GW'tards


I'm a little curious how that works. Do you show up at the game store and if you do not like your opponents list you go home? If so; why play at all?
Personally I kind of like a challenge.

difference between challenge and boring as hell lists with no imagination


I guess I must not have been clear on my question. When you show up on game night and you are paired with an opponent using the featured list; based on your original statements;

Would you:
a.) Ask for a different opponent?
b.) Go home?
c.) Refuse to play?

I get that from your perspective you find these type of super tank scenarios dull & boring; I just am trying to figure out how your suggestion plays out on game night at the store.


Kelvin  
#12 Posted : Friday, July 07, 2017 5:59:14 AM(UTC)
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I personally love tying expensive units up. If a unit thats pricey isnt either claiming objectives or killing its points value, its usually wasteful.

Thats why I never take a Balrog in LOTR or overly suped tank.

I like characters and super stuff, but I also get that sometimes you just want a simpler game.
Kelvin Griffiths, Attack Wing Captain, Lord Of Rings Hero and Tank Commander. Sort of...
Tally - Ho  
#13 Posted : Friday, July 07, 2017 6:39:27 AM(UTC)
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For my British list I briefly toyed with the idea of just throwing 5 Achilles on the table; but, first of all I do not actually have 5 of those. Secondly, that could go horribly wrong real fast. (Although might get a medal for bravery.)

So I decided that I would go with something a little slower but with a little more defense.
1.) Cromwell
- Aggressive Commander
- Cunning Driver
- Aggressive Loader
- Radio Coordinator
29 Pts

2.) Firefly
- Sandbag Armor
- Skilled Mechanic
27 Pts

3.) Achilles
- Clever Loader
- Fire Extinguisher
- Liquid Courage
- Skilled Mechanic
24 Pts

4.) Achilles
- Cunning Commander
- Bigger Hammer
20 Pts

Here is hoping for the right terrain and some good cautious rolls. (In the back of my mind I am hearing the words; hope is not a strategy.)
Kelvin  
#14 Posted : Friday, July 07, 2017 11:08:33 AM(UTC)
Kelvin

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Good list. However if you on a sparse table could be trouble.

Ive been deliberatley tailoring each of my forces lately (Even converting the most used upgrades onto models) and its actually given me way more focus with painting and purchase.

Eg, my us force is a backbone of 4 Shermans (2 76, 2 75.All shamelessly ripping off fury in the looks dept, Im well happy there) . To that I add a Pershing, (No super cause its cheese and was a one off anyway) a Jackson and maybe a few Stuarts and a Hellcat if they get released.

When its game time I pick from the roster (usually a Sherman element),add support as needed/wanted then upgrades. All my forces are like this now, around 8 tanks an army. May not be huge, but each group is developing a nice look and narrative, without there being a huge amount of painting.

I made the decicion to buy at least one of each expansion, but not necesseraly take every tank. Never looked back.

If you wanna do a 5 Achillies force, go for it man play and paint what you like, may even get a rep going as a badass destroyer platoon!
Kelvin Griffiths, Attack Wing Captain, Lord Of Rings Hero and Tank Commander. Sort of...
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Tally - Ho on 7/7/2017(UTC)
Uthak  
#15 Posted : Friday, July 07, 2017 1:43:05 PM(UTC)
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as author of the apparently "dull" heavy list (*shrug) -and therefor its intent - may I gently point at the Tigers initiative while moving.

Many lists here frankly will have a hard time getting their underlying strategy off the ground, as they simply wont have the tiger in view to shoot at unless its in close range - and you don't want to let it get in close range, as it will seriously (and undoubtedly) beat anything to a bloody pulp at close quarters with its 7 attacks and 4-5 re-rolls.

There are a couple of things coming with that initiative: If your list relies on cautious vehicles with low move speed but high fire-ini and then cautious to get behind buildings, this in fact means a building needs to be close by (to plan such cautious move), which in turn means the tiger, moving at ini 11 will 100% of the time use said building/cover against you and stay out of LOS when moving last until it has the advantage.

--> that goes for cover reliance in general, unless you're parked amidst a forest (thus can shoot everywhere, can be shot from anywhere and both give and receive cover): say half behind, but outside a woods/building, in order to get cover but not be seen from other parts of the map - again, be 100% sure you wont get any shots at the tiger, for it will simply use said cover/Block to move out of LOS.

the reliable way to get at high ini movers is to move into the open yourself (thus dragging the contender out as well OR be faster than them (thus I really like Cromwell/comet lists to counter super heavies)... - The key, if I may say, is in actually killing the "nonsense" Panzer-guards, not the tiger itself!

if you don't think so: play against a capable player with British/move ini of 9/10+... you wont see much of them until they're in a position THEY want to be in.

this being said try this:

Cromwell
Driver: Assassin
Gunner: Bloodthirsty Gunner
Doctrine: Bulldog Mascot
Commander: Superb Commander
Equipment: Liquid Courage

Cromwell
Driver: Assassin
Gunner: Bloodthirsty Gunner
Doctrine: Bulldog Mascot
Commander: Cunning Commander
Equipment: Liquid Courage

Cromwell
Driver: Assassin
Gunner: Bloodthirsty Gunner
Doctrine: Bulldog Mascot
Commander: Cunning Commander
Equipment: Liquid Courage

these three racecars move FAST at initiative 10 and shoot at 9/10 (still slightly slower than the tiger). Base attack of 4 is not very impressive, but being in a team of three helps, especially with bloodthirsty gunners bumping them up to 5 each.
The way to break my other list is by fragging the Panzer III's and actually evading/ignoring the mighty tiger - and thus break the massive re-rolls and movement bonus on the Tiger prior to actually fighting it...
The Tiger can hide, but the Panzer III's cant, as they are sluggish (for Brits). and you only kill say the shield tank and the tiger is slowed down to 10...
now, if you're the attacker, all Cromwell's already move faster than the tiger and the game is a different one entirely, now the British dictate the game.
you can now hunt the second Panzer III, but careful to stay out of reach/LOS of the Tiger (still massive firepower and 3 re-rolls).
Once both Panzers are gone the mighty tiger is left a sitting duck at ini 9 and no re-rolls (!!!) at all. now you hopefully still have all or at the very least 2 Croms left to take on the Tiger. Utilize higher ini to stay in cover w/o granting it and in close range (yes he will also get stronger, and benefits from heavy, BUT you will give him the much needed -1 on armor... Now this part is a tat tricky, as the tiger is still a beast at 6/7 attacks (and possibly his tungsten) Whatever you feel more comfortable, engage it at range or if you prefer close range. if you have the meat left on your bones I heavily (!!!) recommend staying still and at close range whenever possible, use your semi indirect fire to first kill wittmann and then the bloody gunner.
(yest I know, staying stationary at close range with the tiger WILL hurt bad, but think of this in your decision: you will be fighting 5 shots, with semi-indirect re-rolls at the -1 modified tiger armor, rather than 4 shots w/o re-rolls at 2 armor (which most likely will bounce left and right)...

if you manage to survive this close range brawl your golden and the tiger will die...

PS: ideally kill the command tank first, as it will destroy the attack speed of the tiger (from 9 to 4) - this depends on whether you are the attacker or not (thus if you already win initiative ties you can cherry pick, if not: kill the command Panzer)

good luck on the big cat hunt
Tally - Ho  
#16 Posted : Friday, July 07, 2017 2:32:53 PM(UTC)
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@Uthak;
Thanks for your insights. You do make some valid points.

In regards to the strategy for my British list; you make the assumption that the Tiger would be the primary focus. For me I would try to take out the 2 Panzers in the early rounds while attempting to keep the damage to my units to a minimum; which if successful would then reduce the effectiveness of the Tiger. The question is whether or not I could do this while managing to not get in too close & if I could use terrain as well as your shield tank to block LOS from your tiger to some of my units. (Shield tanks sometimes work both ways.)

Obviously I would also be relying on maneuverability, terrain, & cautious rolls to help facilitate this. I would also need enough operational units to then chase down the tiger.

But then again no plan survives the first shot.
Kelvin  
#17 Posted : Friday, July 07, 2017 8:40:32 PM(UTC)
Kelvin

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Uthak I dont think your list is dull at all. Its chrachterfull, historically accurate and tacticaly intresting. Plus its first community one featured so theres a big plus. Good work mate.
Kelvin Griffiths, Attack Wing Captain, Lord Of Rings Hero and Tank Commander. Sort of...
MiSiO  
#18 Posted : Wednesday, September 27, 2017 7:56:49 PM(UTC)
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That this list needs ARE defensive re-rolls to stop Assassins from working and to be able to survive 2x Panther, 2xTiger, 2xIS lists from shooting You dead fast. And I mean re-rolls on Tiger not III. Many elite lists have a ton of offensive re-rolls. Kurt+Wittmann with precise loader for example. Or Barkmann with precise loader. Soviets can use stationary SU-100 with doctrine giving re-rolls etc.

This list should have Toni as a driver for example. +4 INI + a re-roll.

Why I like this list more than I like 2 elite tank lists? It works better in scenarios where You have to attack enemy point to score VP. With 2 vs 2 elite tanks it is impossible to do. This list can do it. One Panzer III moves closer to the target while Tiger + another panzer fights panthers/Tiger/IS...

What is problematic about this list. Keeping distance between low INI III and 11-13 INI Tiger. Smart enemy will get III into LOS fast.
MiSiO
xFascistUnicorn  
#19 Posted : Tuesday, December 05, 2017 8:04:00 AM(UTC)
xFascistUnicorn

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I view this as a very key subject as I have made those “unkillable” double Tiger I ace lists and gone undefeated almost completely. Until I started producing counters. Cheap Stug swarms not moving or something similar or upgraded artillery can REALLY put the hurt on those lists. Even if they kill a tank a turn. 2 or 3 crits or one dead tank will turn the tide.

Points to remember-
-Enough bodies means you can capitalize stationary re-rolls.
-Stationary Artillery means serious defence reduction to supers.
-Area coverage is key! They can easily shot dodge you if practiced!
-Force them to play objectives, don’t let them play the tabling game!
-Terrain Placement! Try to leave as much open lane as possible!
(Woods on player edges building turned sideways for minimal blockage.)
Redblock  
#20 Posted : Thursday, December 07, 2017 2:16:09 AM(UTC)
Redblock

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Playing objectives does help against Super Tanks. Making them move and expose weakness is a good thing. Swarms of cheaper tanks can take their toll on them as well. In all gaming communities there are those players that think they must always win. I like the Beer and Pretzels approach to TANKS and it is what has drawn me to the game.
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