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Uthak  
#1 Posted : Friday, April 21, 2017 5:27:08 PM(UTC)
Uthak

Rank: Commander

Posts: 91

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FAQ 1.0

I spent some hours (more than I want to admit) combing the rules-forum for everything I have compiled here. I hope you find answers to your questions and let me know if you have any unsolved questions I can add here. Also let me know if you find other official quotes contradicting what I posted here – emphasis on official here - arguing rules is totally OK, but wont change the FAQ unless a HQ member says something to validate that.

→ This list is incomplete and non official, I will do my best to maintain and update it. Special thanks to all the great, active forum members asking all these questions, discussing them and getting HQ to respond and clarify! Keep it up.

@ Tanks HQ: It would be great if you guys could fill in where I marked rules as unclear, and also double check on the rulings I have quoted you on. Maybe your minds have changed, maybe I misunderstood what you said. Thanks!
--> Yellow highlighted questions still need (clearer) answer.

PS: I tried to keep personal opinion to a minimum and only where rules were still unclear to give a tip for house-ruling. Absolutely not intent on upsetting anyone, play it as you wish – just food for thought.
____________________________________

1.) What does "Dr. Franz Bäke" rule mean by saying make a “normal move” in the beginning of the game after both sides have been deployed?

Answer: He may make a single one-arrow-move.
Official: here

2.) Can I re-roll re-rolls?

Answer: No, you can't.
Official: here

3.) Does Cover stack? Say firing from within Cover into another piece of Cover?

Answer: No, Cover does not stack. Its either +1 (you are in Cover) or nothing (you are NOT in Cover)
Official: here

4.) Can I pre-measure? If so, what can I pre-measure, what not?

Answer: Yes, you can pre-measure anything you want.
Official: here

5.1.) Which player begins making repairs in the Command Phase?

Answer: HQ officially leaves this up to us. Unfortunately.
Official: here
Comment/Opinion/House Rule: I can see this causing arguments in tight situations/competitive-play. "Open for interpretation"-rulings are the worst kind and easiest to avoid discussion-starters (imo).
Our club plays like this: All repairs and Blitzkrieg movement are handled in initiative order – use Attacker/Defender-rules to decide who goes first in tie-situation.


5.2.) In what order do I repair my tanks?

Answer: In any order you want. Unfortunately.
Official: here
Comment/Opinion/House Rule: same as 5.1 (above)

5.3.) In what order do I need to make my Blitzkrieg-moves (if applicable)?

Answer: In initiative order.
Official: here

5.4.) When do I Repair Damage and when do I make my Blitzkrieg moves? What comes first?

Answer: You attempt repairs before making any Blitzkrieg moves.
Official: here

5.5.) Can I still make a Blitzkrieg move if my tank received a "Bailed Out"/"Busted Track" effect (may not move)?

Answer: No, you cant.
Official: The rules for "Blitzkrieg" clearly state, that "This tank may make a single Move [...]" which would be made impossible by the "Bailed Out" rules: "This tank cannot Move or shoot.".
This would be supported by Andrews (HQ) statement that he may move in case he successfully repairs.[/i]

6.) What is my maximum attack-range?

Answer: There is no maximum attack-range.
Official: RB p.9; Pick Your Target / “There are no range limits, ...”

7.) Does my own Cover grant cover to my opponent / how does Cover/Woods work?

Answer: Yes, but it depends. If you are in the middle of a Woods and shoot at a target outside said Woods, said target receives a cover-bonus from the part of the Woods that is in the Line of Sight (los), even though you are hiding in it. In order to be in Cover but not grant it you need to place you gun-mount OUTSIDE of said Woods (on the border).
Official: RB p.12; Cover / “Ignore terrain directly underneath the shooting tank (not the whole terrain piece) when determining if the target is in cover.” / also see picture on page 12.

8.) Does my “Cautious”-move change my movement-token – therefor modify/grant me Cover?

Answer: Yes, it does. (detailed cautious-rules below)
Official: here

9.) May I use re-rolls when firing a Tungsten-/Super-velocity Shot?

Answer: Yes, special shots are checked after you made all your re-rolls and your final results are fixed.
Official: here

10.) Can a tank that is equipped with "... Loses the Fast-keyword" use a Supercharger to gain "Fast"?

Answer: No, "... Loses the Fast-keyword" is a continuous replacement effect, so after you discard Supercharger to gain “Fast”, the losing-rule immediately removes it again.
Official: here

11.1.) Do Critical card-effects stack?

Answer: Yes, they do. Even if causing 0 damage and the effect stays the same (eg “Bailed Out”), you will need to remove all instances of said cards to delete their effect entirely.
Official: here

11.2.) When successfully repairing a repairable Critical Effect, do I also repair the potential Damage inflicted by its application (life/hull points lost)?

Answer: No, you don't. You only remove the cards/(their Effect), whereas the Damage it inflicted is not part of the ongoing effect and thus will remain.
Official: RB p. 14; 3. Repair Damage / "When you repair a Critical card you only remove the card and its Special Effect, any Damage taken from that hit remains."

11.3.) When having to draw multiple Critical Cards from the same attack - Do I draw and resolve them one after another or do I draw all cards and then chose in what order to apply them?

Answer: You draw one card and resolve it before drawing the next.
Official: here

11.4.) When having to draw multiple Critical Cards from the same attack - how do they get applied? Do effects stack?

Answer: Critical cards get applied one at a time. Therefor “Ammo Explosion”, “Damaged Equipment” and “Injured Crew” apply their effect after one-another. This means you cant discard two “Injured Crew” cards with one crew-member to save the rest, but have to discard first one, and then another crew member.
For Ammo Explosion: All Ammo Upgrades (if applicable) explode and deal their extra damage on the first instance, further instances only apply the regular damage (3), for the Ammo Upgrades are already gone (rather blown up).[/i]
Official: here

12.) Is there a difference for shots to the Side or the Rear of a tank?

Answer: No, there is not (right now). Or rather: There is no rule differentiating between Side and Rear.
Official: RB p.12; Side Shot / “Subtract one Defence die if any part of the shooting tank's hull (excluding protruding gun barrels) is behind the front of the target tank.” - this condition is also met when you are totally behind said tank. / also from HQ: here

13.) How many Critical card-decks do you need for playing? Share one or one per player?

Answer: You need a single deck that you share. Weirdly enough.
Official: here
Comment/Opinion/House Rule: However I feel the need to add, that this might lead to shortcomings in big games with many tanks involved – On a personal note I would recommend one deck per player in such situations.

14.) What happens if all tanks (from all players) get destroyed during the same command phase?

Answer: Unclear.
Official: No statement / There is no rule specifying this.

15.1.) Can I shoot a tank that has already lost it's last hull point? (to trigger my “Cautious” rule or try to get their Crew Stunned for their “Final Fury” for example)

Answer: Yes, you can. The target tank will not be marked as destroyed until the command phase.
Official: RB p. 14; 1. Destroy Tanks / During Command Phase: “Mark any tank that no longer has any Damage left by placing a Destroyed token on the tank...”

15.2.) Can "Wheeled" vehicles still attack after being destroyed, just like normal vehicles ("Final Fury")?

Answer: Yes, they can.
Official: "Wheeled" has you remove the vehicle from the game if it is destroyed (as supposed to leaving it as "Impassable Terrain"/RB p. 14; 1. Destroy Tanks). However marking it as destroyed only happens in the Command Phase, and thus your "Wheeled" vehicle may still fire during the Shooting Phase.

16.) Can I still shoot - even if my Attack value is zero (0) (or even negative)? (in order to discard an/several instances of "Damaged Optics" Critical Effect for example)

Answer: Yes, you can. You're still attacking, just with zero (0) dice. However you will still need a valid, visible target to "shoot" at.
Official: here

17.1.) Artillery keyword. It states that the tank can shoot at tanks blocked by other tanks. Does the target still receive Cover?

Answer: Yes, it does.
Official: Indirectly attacking tanks with the artillery keyword are not exempt from the rules for cover / RB p.12; Cover / “A target is in Cover if you cannot draw a line from the tank's turret (…) to at least three corners of the target tank without passing through any terrain that Blocks Line of Sight or gives Cover.”

17.2.) Artillery keyword. It states that the tank can shoot at tanks blocked by other tanks. Does that include friendly, blocking tanks?

Answer: Yes it does. The rules for Artillery don't differentiate between enemy tanks and friendlies, therefor the word “tanks” refers to ALL tanks.
Official: Panzer IV (short) – card ; Artillery / “When this tank shoots it may shoot at tanks blocked by other tanks.” / Also: here

18.1.) When discarding “There is always vodka”, do I receive +3 initiative for that turn (+1 for having “Tiav” equipped at the beginning of turn and +2 for then discarding “Tiav”)?

Answer: No, you only receive +2 initiative, because as soon as you discard “Tiav” you lose the +1 for just having it equipped.
Official: here

18.2.) How long does “There is always vodka” last? As the effect of the discard lasts until the end of the turn, does the tank still have +2 initiative for the shooting phase?

Answer: Yes, the effects last all phases of the turn.
Official: here

19.1.) Does the “Quick Turn” movement give me a movement-token?

Answer: No it doesn’t. Other cards with similar effects clearly state if they do so.
Official: here

19.2.) Does the “Quick Turn” movement change my status from stationary (when applicable) to moved, even though I don't receive a movement token? Thus: Do I still get stationary re-rolls (and other benefits for being remaining stationary: like Camo Netting)?

Answer: Unclear.
Official: No statement / There is no rule specifying this.
Comment/Opinion/House Rule: Yes, you now count as moved (not stationary anymore) and No, you don't receive said re-rolls. The rule-text states you moved, just didn’t receive any movement tokens for said move.

19.3.) After using a “Quick Turn” move after all movement is finished your initiative drops to zero (0), how do modifiers that only apply during the shooting phase work here? Do they add their respective bonuses to the new value of 0 (Radio Coordinator, Aggressive Commander, etc.)?

Answer: Your Initiatve drops to zero (0) at the end of that Movement Phase, so Yes, modifiers applied in the Shooting Phase still get applied and modify the new value of zero (0). This also means (eg) that a Radio Coordinator can now overwrite said initiative of zero (0).
Official:here

20.) If my tank is behind a wall or hedgerow (“Hull Down”), but his gun can peek over the terrain, does he count as in cover?

Answer: No, not for now, as there at no official rules for those types of terrain/or tank positioning.
Official: These types of Terrain have no classification/rules in the rule book, and, unless agreed upon differently with your opponent, neither give cover nor hinder Line of Sight.
Comment/Opinion/House Rule:
If you agree with your opponent to count them as “Buildings” (page 8) you would technically not be able to draw a Line of Sight across said wall/shoot through/over it, and if you declare it “Woods” (page 8) you wouldn’t be able to shoot through it either, unless you entered it - which also sounds incorrect.


21.) Can I use “'War Daddy' Pool” to upgrade one (1) normal hit to a Critical hit and then use a “Deadly Gunner” to make said Critical hit back into now two (2) normal hits?

Answer: Unclear.
Official: No statement / There is no rule specifying this.
Comment/Opinion/House Rule: Yes, I don't see any rule prohibiting you from modifying a single hit twice. I would assume this case is similar to when you can have more defense die than 6 when using all modifiers, prior to adjusting to the final count of 6. Here: The final result of the shot would be determined after all re-rolls and modifiers have been applied.

22.) Do “Defensive Driver” and “Add-On Armor” let me re-roll a defensive die every time any tank chooses this tank as a target, or only once per shooting-phase?

Answer: You may use such re-rolls every time anyone shoots said tank.
Official: here and here

23.) Can I drive through a Destroyed Tank?

Answer: No, you cant. Destroyed Tanks count as Impassable Terrain, and as such Movement aiming to cross said Impassable Terrain ends and the border of said Impassable Terrain.
Official: RB p.8 & p.14; Destroyed Tanks (p.8) & Impassable Terrain (p.8) & Destroy Tanks (p.14) / "Destroyed Tanks are Impassable to movement." (p.8) & "If the Measuring Arrow crosses Impassable terrain, the tank must stop moving when it reaches the Impassable terrain (here: the Destroyed Tank)" (p.8) & "For the rest of the game this tank stays in place as Impassable terrain." (p.14)

24.1.) Can I drive through operational tanks?

Answer: Yes, you can. Weirdly enough. Operational tanks (for now) don’t count as terrain nor Impassable Terrain – Thus they don’t block or hinder movement. However you need to clear the tank and have enough room to place your tank on the other side to make such move. Consider the arrow a maximum straight line, but in reality any combinations of movement that lead to that point are possible.
Official: here & here & here

24.2.) Can I park/stop my movement in/on top of another tank (operational, friendly, enemy or destroyed)?

Answer: No, you cant.
Official: here & here

25.1.) Minefields. A tank uses its first movement of the phase to check a minefield. It triggers a mine and damage is rolled immediately - scoring sufficient damage to destroy the tank. Does said tank now still make the roll to clear the minefield?

Answer: Yes, it stays alive and active until being Destroyed in the Command Phase.

25.2.) May the tank then proceed to move its remaining movement?

Answer: Yes, it stays alive and active until being Destroyed in the Command Phase.

25.3.) If its movement permits, may it trigger and clear additional minefields this turn?

Answer: Yes, it stays alive and active until being Destroyed in the Command Phase.

25.4.) May it also then attack and be attacked in the Shooting Phase?

Answer: Yes, it stays alive and active until being Destroyed in the Command Phase.

25.5.) When does Cautious check for Destroyed? Could this tank still make its Cautious check and keep moving?

Answer: “Cautious” checks for remaining Damage Points (I like to call them Hull Points) in order to even enable to roll for the extra move. So No, this tank may not make a “cautious” move. If you're wondering when Damage Points get taken off: right when the damage occurs, just the assessment of Destroyed happens in the Command Phase.

25.6.) If a living tank triggers a minefield during its Blitzkrieg Move and suffers sufficient damage to Destroy it, does it wait until the next turn's Command Phase to be marked destroyed and remain moving, shooting, and otherwise participating in battle as a healthy tank until then?

Answer: Not 100% clear how to read the official response, but I understand that Yes, a tank that dies during his Blitzkrieg move gets to live another whole round, since Destroyed Tanks have already been marked.

Official to all of 25.1.-6.): here

26.) Can I have more defense die than 6 before bringing the total down to the maximum 6?

Answer: Yes, you make all adjustments to defense before limiting the pool to six
Official: here

27.) Can I have more than 6 Attack dice at once?

Answer: Yes you can.
Official: here & here

28.) Do the defensive re-rolls gained with "Vasily Krysov" apply on every instance the tank is shot at in the adjacent Shooting Phase?

Answer: No, any re-rolls gained with "Vasily Krysov" apply only once for the whole remainder of said turn. Example: if he moved twice you gain two (2) re-rolls for the whole shooting phase, no matter how often you get attacked and have to roll for defense.
Official: here and Taking “METUS” word for this one (he says he talked to HQ)

29.) When applying the special rule of “Assassin”, who gets to chose what Crew Member to discard?

Answer: Unclear.
Official: No statement / There is no rule specifying this.
Comment/Opinion/House Rule: The rule text state that the defending player discards a Crew Member, but doesn’t clarify who gets to pick said Crew Member to be discarded. For simplicity I would assume it is meant that the target may choose whom to discard, and the benefit of Assassin is rather to generally focus crew - not to pinpoint them.

30.1.) In Victory Point (VP) missions, does having multiple uncontested tanks occupy a Mission Objective give me a VP per tank per turn?

Answer: No. One Objective = One VP per turn, no matter how many tanks are on it.
Official: here

30.2.) Can an abandoned tank/tank without crew (Bailed out and/or all Crew Member's discarded - when all slots were formerly filled) hold a Victory Point/contest it?

Answer: Yes, it can. As long as a tank is not marked as Destroyed he counts as operational for all rules and concerns.
Official: here

31.) Can I shoot through my friendly tanks?

Answer: No you cant. Any and every tank blocks the Line of Sight if its drawn through it.
Official: RB p.9; Line of Sight / “A tank has a Line of Sight to its target if you can draw a line from the tank’s turret to any part of the target tank without passing through any other tank or any Blocking terrain.”

32.) Does “'Bobby' Woll”'s special attack (separate 3 die attack within one measuring stick) benefit from other modifiers like “Michael Wittman”'s +1 attack die?

Answer: Yes, it does. In that instance the special attack would now be rolled on 4 dice. Thus re-rolls and any other modifiers may apply to this special attack as well.
Official: here

33.) Does “Ernst Barkmann”'s attack-re-roll only count for the first time it shoots in a game, or for the first shot fired every turn?

Answer: It counts for the first shot every round. The phrasing is directed to clarify that you may not re-roll the re-roll, even if its condition gets fulfilled again (no uncanceled Normal or Critical hits).
Official: here and here

34.) Can I discard “Damaged Optics” right after drawing it, if I happen to already having shot that round?

Answer: No you can't. The card only comes into effect when its drawn, and if you have already shot before you drew the card, it didn't cancel out the cards effect.
Official: here

35.) Do I need to apply the special rules of all my crew and upgrades all the time/as soon as applicable?

Answer: Depends, but for most cards, No. For many cards you can chose to keep them hidden in spite of their benefit in order to use them at a different time to bigger use/surprise. Excluded are cards with an eye on them, which have to be open all the time.
Official: here

36.) Does any tank get Cover when both are in the same terrain piece? And what if they are at Point Blank Range (direct contact) in a “Woods”? (thanks for the image!: http://abload.de/img/imag08063eu9i.jpg )

Answer: Yes, both tanks gain Cover in both scenarios. Tanks completely within Woods, and anything they shoot at, is in Cover.
Official: RB p. 12; Cover / “A target is in Cover if you cannot draw a line from the tank's turret (…) to at least three corners of the target tank without passing through any other tank or any terrain that block Line of Sight or gives Cover./ Also: here

37.) What do Hills do in Tanks? Do they obscure Line of Sight??

Answer: No they don’t. Weirdly enough. The game currently does not support elevation, and draws line of sight only in 2D. Unless the hill/mountain/elevation is also a known form of terrain it does not influence the game play.
Official: here
Comment/Opinion/House Rule: However having hills etc. interfere with Line of Sight makes good sense and will be most likely implemented very soon into Tanks. A good house rule could state that a tank entirely behind a hill cant be seen, therefor not shot at and if any part of it is obscured by said hill it gains Cover.

38.1.) Does my tank with activated Radio Coordinator have to transfer his initiative every turn or is it an optional effect?

Answer: The effect of the Radio Coordinator is not optional (weirdly enough). Therefor a tank with a Radio Coordinator MUST transfer its Initiative to another friendly tank in the Shooting Phase.
Official: here
Comment/Opinion/House Rule: It remains unclear when exactly the Radio Coordinator transfers his Initiative and thus could start a chain reaction of initiative zero (0) drops.

38.2.) When does the Radio Operator transfer his Initiative during the Shooting Phase? At the very start - say: before any shooting happens? At its own original Initiative step? At it's new Initiative step (if applicable) (eg zero (0))? The rules only state "During the Shooting Phase".

Answer: Unclear.
Official: No statement / There is no rule specifying this.

38.3.) What happens if you equip multiple tanks with Radio Coordinators and one gets Shell Shocked (or similar)? Does this mean 2-3 tanks get affected by a single Shell Shocked-effect automatically? // Alternatively, what happens with multiple "RC's" on different initiative tanks? do they now chain-link the highest initiative value down the line?

Answer: Unclear.
Official: No statement / There is no rule specifying this.
Comment/Opinion/House Rule: This depends on when exactly the Radio Coordinator transfers his Initiative.

39.) Can I ram another tank?

Answer: No, there are currently no rules for ramming other tanks.
Official: here

40.) Does the "Sharpshooter Gunner"'s effect apply only on the very first uncanceled Critical Hit, or does it apply to the first uncanceled Critical Hit of every turn?

Answer: It applies to the first uncanceled Critical Hit of every turn.
Official: here

41.) Does drawing Critical cards (eg resolving uncanceled Critical Hits) automatically count as taking Damage? Eg when determining if a hit tank loses his “Camo Netting”-Upgrade.

Answer: No, not by default. The developers differentiate carefully between “Hit”, “Damage” and “(Special) Effect”. Note: Uncanceled Critical Hits don’t apply Critical Damage - they make you draw Critical cards (not damage!) / Critical cards don’t necessarily inflict damage - rather apply a potential Effect and/or Damage as two different things. Cards that don’t have an Effect don’t apply one, cards that don’t have Damage (red number), don’t inflict any.
Official: RB p. 22 (backside/last page); QUICK REFERENCE / “For each uncancelled Critical Hit draw a Critical card and apply all effects. This may include damage.” / ALSO: RB p. 13; Critical Hits / “If the card has a Damage Effect, mark off the number of Damage Points […]. If the card has a Special Effect, apply that effect immediately.”

42.) Can a "kommissar" execute (discard) himself to activate his effect? Or shoot the fire extinguisher, Ammo or the bottle of Vodka?

Answer: Yes, he can. Weirdly enough. The rules do not limit whom or what he may discard (only that it needs to be either a Crew or other Upgrade card), therefor himself being a Crew-Upgrade, he could discard himself.
Official: Kommisar card rule text; "Discard one Crew or Upgrade card to cancel a Bailed Out, Shell Shocked, or Stunned Crew effect."
___________________________________

PSS: I noticed a contradiction during my research: When asking if you can drive through Impassable Terrain the rules clearly state that its not possible and you must go around them. But in another post Andrew from HQ says: “Just remember in TANKS where you end up on the arrow is not the direct path you took to get there, it is just where your tank ended up at the end of its move.”; This would state that you can draw a straight line through impassable Terrain as long as you can fit your tank in the clear behind said Impassable Terrain (like a Destroyed Tank).

Edited by user Saturday, August 12, 2017 7:21:51 AM(UTC)  | Reason: layout

thanks 7 users thanked Uthak for this useful post.
Jeta2112 on 4/21/2017(UTC), Necrogoat on 4/21/2017(UTC), Waster on 4/22/2017(UTC), meta3 on 4/22/2017(UTC), Ed on 4/24/2017(UTC), Mjorr on 5/15/2017(UTC), Lotorc on 8/13/2017(UTC)
Jeta2112  
#2 Posted : Friday, April 21, 2017 5:43:44 PM(UTC)
Jeta2112

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Nice work Uthak, much appreciated.
Necrogoat  
#3 Posted : Friday, April 21, 2017 6:13:17 PM(UTC)
Necrogoat

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Thx for your sork, great job!

But one thing:
21) I don't think so, because in my understanding you can modify a dice only once (like the re-roll thing), but in this way you will modify him twice (first turn hit to crit, second turn crit to hit-hit)
Uthak  
#4 Posted : Friday, April 21, 2017 6:29:33 PM(UTC)
Uthak

Rank: Commander

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Originally Posted by: Necrogoat Go to Quoted Post

21) I don't think so, because in my understanding you can modify a dice only once (like the re-roll thing), but in this way you will modify him twice (first turn hit to crit, second turn crit to hit-hit)


Absolutely possible, I just personally think that (in this case) it is possible based on other rulings (like number of defense die - you may go up to 7/8 defense die prior to subtracting what is due to bring it down to its final count), where you make all adjustments before determining the final result. Not to say I am right and you were wrong, I think both are viable.

However how we rule is not so important here, both are house rules, that's why I stated the ruling is unclear and my own interpretation is only food-for-thought until HQ responds (even if some may disagree). I would like an official statement to delete my own opinion entirely
Chargers  
#5 Posted : Saturday, April 22, 2017 2:03:27 PM(UTC)
Chargers

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Awesome, dude! Thanks for doing this. I thought I'd find some time to do it, but you've saved me a lot of work.
1000cc of testosterone
CmdrRook  
#6 Posted : Saturday, April 22, 2017 2:04:52 PM(UTC)
CmdrRook

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Radio coordinator transfers it's initiative when it would activate, itself. A shell shocked radio op could only interfere with tanks already activated, or other init 0 tanks, then the effect expires when shooting ends.
Uthak  
#7 Posted : Saturday, April 22, 2017 2:49:10 PM(UTC)
Uthak

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Originally Posted by: CmdrRook Go to Quoted Post
Radio coordinator transfers it's initiative when it would activate, itself. A shell shocked radio op could only interfere with tanks already activated, or other init 0 tanks, then the effect expires when shooting ends.


I tend to agree. This is how we read it at first & still play it. However this is not 100% doubt free settled in the rules.

The rule reads: "During the Shooting Phase, another friendly tank gains this tank's Initiative."

this may very well mean it transfers its initiative at its own activation, it also may mean that it transfers it at the very beginning of the phase, which both can lead to very different situations.

Explanation 1 would be:
A Radio Coordinator transfers his init AT his own init step and then you may chose which tank shoots first, the Coordinators tank or the tank with the new, now buffed stat.
This would mean, when shell shocked, his initiative drops to zero immediately, therefor he loses his spot in the initiative ladder and goes to zero, therefor he transfers it only at step zero where it doesn't matter if another tank gets affected, for they will all have shot by now.

Explanation 2 would be:
The Radio Coordinator transfers his initiative before ANYTHING happens, right when the shooting phase starts. Normally at this time nobody would've shot him yet, thus nobody yet CAUSED said Shell Shocked critical hit, thus he transfers his unmodified, good initiative value - regardless of what happens later (ie getting hit and Shell Shocked).
BUT, if he already has this unrepaired shell shock from last turn, he would now transfer his zero init to another tank of much higher initiative because the transfer is happening prior to the actual shooting happening.

Explanation 3 would be (yes, highly unlikely):
The transfers happens at the original initiative step of the coordinator. basically he drops to 0 and at his original initiative step, at that step doesn't act but drop down, but simultaneously transfers the zero init beforehand and drags a "healthy" tank with him.

***

Real interesting stuff happens when you link in a second Coordinator. say coordinator A is at init 9, coordinator B at 7, random tank C at 6.
Could now A buff B and B use his new value of A to buff C to, in the end, have all three tanks all firing at initiatve 9.
Respectively what happens with only 2 tanks with Radio Coordinators, A at init 8, B at init 6. Shooting phase comes around and the enemys tank Z at init 9 Shell Shocks A at step 9. A now drops to zero with an unrepaired shell shock, thus gets skipped at step 8, no comes step 6 with B, he transfers init 6 to A. Does he pull A back up to 6 or is Shell shock a continuous effect, and regardless of what, wouldn't we have a paradox here? A's Coordinator would now non-optionally transfer his init zero to B, while B would non-optionally & constantly transfer his init 6 to A. They both have to share their initiative with another tank (there is only two tanks), this then respectively changes their initiative and thus they share their new value. this is an endless loop.

--> another rather unpopular question would be for the competitive crowd: if he slides down to zero and then transfers, does the transferred tank get to shoot again? First at his own step X and then again, now at step zero? I don't think there is a specific rule saying that every tank only shoots once/limiting them, it just stated that they get to shoot in initiative order. (no need to flame me now, but I know what questions tournament players ask - everything possible to get an edge - why I don't play 40k anymore)

In the end this is not 100% clear from the card and would need to be verified by HQ for me to edit the post and clear the "unclear".
Whatever their ruling may be, it all boils down to when exactly initiative gets officially transferred during the Shooting Phase.

Haha, damn, sorry for the long text, I just find such rules very interesting to figure out and get right. OCD much.

Edited by user Saturday, April 22, 2017 3:10:01 PM(UTC)  | Reason: add even more stuff :D

Uthak  
#8 Posted : Wednesday, April 26, 2017 6:26:16 PM(UTC)
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More questions: (if you have an official post of HQ, that would be sweet!)

- When exactly do I get to activate Upgrades such as Fire Extinguisher? right after drawing a Fire Critical Damage card during the shooting phase? does the card still apply its normal damage or does the whole card with damage and effect get discarded before anything is applied?

- How exactly does a tank block LOS. I know about the corners, but the rulebook says that if any part of the LOS is obstructed/passes through ANY other tank/part of one, you may not shoot said target. How is that LOS applied though? in the Rulebook an image shows a cone-like shape, drawn from a gun to all corners of a target tank.
This makes sense.
So does that mean a Su-122 can hide half its butt behind an IS-2 and dish out attacks (its gun is slightly offset from the IS-2 hull - therefor draws its cone-LOS past the big tank), while NOT being able to be shot in return as half of (or really ANY part of it) is behind another tank, thus LOS of enemy tanks would have go through that tank rendering an attack impossible? Am I understanding this right, or does a tank only partially behind another tank only get cover but not full immunity (unless shot from an angle where the "guard" tank is not blocking)?
CmdrRook  
#9 Posted : Thursday, April 27, 2017 2:15:35 AM(UTC)
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Equipment can be discarded any time it specifies. If it doesn't specify, then it can be discarded whenever. Crits still apply their initial effects, damage, at cetera, with the very important exception of Cancel/Ignore effects, like Shurzen, Concrete Armor, and War Daddy.

We can shorten this scenario to the word Screening. I've never thought screening blocked all Los if it blocked any los, but I can see how it would make movement initiative even more important. Maybe the wording is a very confusing clarification that you must attack your intended target, not the one that just happens to be somewhat in the path of the shot?
Uthak  
#10 Posted : Thursday, April 27, 2017 7:26:36 AM(UTC)
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Yes, agreed. After reading more in depth I noticed the developers use slight differences in wording to differentiate between "Damage" and "Effect"'s on "Critical Damage"-cards
In detail they use the word "Effect" to refer ONLY to effects of the card OTHER than damage. They use the word "Hit" to refer to the point when attack dice are thrown and an uncanceled (Critical) Hit is determined. Lastly they use "card" to refer to a Critical Damage card after it got drawn but before any of its damage & effect get applied.
Generally when canceling the effect of any card the damage from said card still gets applied. Its more like an instant repair.

Simply put they differentiate between effect and damage on Critical Damage.

In my own fire extinguisher example: You would draw the Engine Fire, take the damage, then get to attempt to repair the effect in the repair phase (if still alive), and if that fails, use the extinguisher to cancel the effect after the failed repairs to avoid taking more damage. You can alternatively apply such cards even earlier (like in the case when you get your crew injured, where you want to cancel the effect instantly, not after the repair phase, where it will be to late.

After re-reading the rules on LOS I found the answer to the screening dilemma. Rule book page 9 Line of Sight "A tank has Line of Sight to its target if you can draw a line from the tank's turret to any part of the target tank without passing through any other tank or any Blocking terrain.[...]".
Since a part of the tank is peeking out you got a valid target and can be shot normally.
_____________________________________

more questions:

1.) What happens if a tank with Camo Netting receives a Critical Hit but draws zero (0) damage (Bailed Out for example). Does the tank still lose its Camo Netting?

Answer: I would assume NO, for the analyses earlier: The tank would need to receive DAMAGE, not just an effect to lose its Camo Netting.

2.) Since I don't own the card I cant read the original rule-text, but does the brittish Calculating Driver read "At the start of the Movement Phase gain either +2 Initiative or -4 Initiative until the end of the phase."? And if so, what's the purpose? who would want to lower his initiative by -4 for no reward? Just to move first, and try to get your opponent to make a dumb return move? Cautious would be an interesting combo, but useless since at -4 initiative most enemy tanks likely will already have gotten shots off on you...

3.) Komissar. Can I use the effect of a Komissar Upgrade if I have no other Crew/upgrade cards equipped? Basically: Can the Komissar shoot himself to keep morale up? (I know, sounds dumb, but the rules are not clear)

Answer: I would assume, technically, yes he can shoot himself to re-instill morale! the rules read "Discard one Crew or Upgrade card to cancel a Bailed Out, Shell Shocked, or Stunned Crew effect.". This does not exclude the Komissar himself, being a Crew member. // in any case he does need to discard a Crew or upgrade to cause his effect, but why not himself? (similar to the Brits "Bulldog Mascot")

4.) Wardaddy Pool. Since other similar cards have their effects applied every turn (Ernst Barkmann for example), doesn't that mean Wardaddy Pool gets to ignore the first injured Crew member EVERY shooting phase?

5.) Does Baby Richards get to make three moves per turn? 1 at initiative zero and then 2(/3) at his initiative?

Answer: I would assume he gets to make another, now regular movement (it says "normal movement" in the rules) at his initiative - normally 3 moves total.
So Baby Richards in a M10 with Supercharger would get to move once at initiative zero, then 3 times during his own movement (supercharged) and then, if lucky another time after shooting with cautious. 5 moves maximum per turn?!
CmdrRook  
#11 Posted : Thursday, April 27, 2017 12:21:02 PM(UTC)
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1. If you've drawn a critical damage card, your tank has received critical damage, even if it doesn't receive a damage token from it. I play that any resolved Hits remove camo.

2. Yes. The purpose would be to grab objectives or a critical location that may become occupied by an enemy at a later point in the turn. I wish it were a global driver.

3. Yes, the komissar may shoot himself, or the fire extinguisher, or the sandbags, or the sabot shells as an example to the troops to inspire them. On second thought, maybe leave the komissar somewhere safe and supervised until the battle blows over.

4. War Daddy lacks any quantifier beyond "the first injured crew effect you draw for this tank." Period. The letter and the spirit of the rule suggest "of the game."

5. Yes. It is as fun as it sounds, too.
Uthak  
#12 Posted : Thursday, April 27, 2017 1:48:30 PM(UTC)
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I disagree on your answer to 1.). Other cards can only be explained by differentiating very precisely between hit, effect and damage, a card without damage would be rendered an effect card. The Camo Net clearly states it gets discarded when receiving Damage, not when being (uncanceled) hit.
(though the intended wording probably was "when HIT, discard..." - I agree, but its not)

2.) makes sense, I have never played with objectives, so I wouldn't know how effective this was.

3.) that's how I would rule too. stupid but ok.

4.) So does Barkmann, and HQ clearly said that his text should be interpreted as "first shot of every round" not "of game". Therefor I stick with my assumption that Wardaddy would get to be interpreted the same way, unless HQ offers an answer? Maybe?

5.) haha, nice, exited to play/see that very soon!

Edited by user Thursday, April 27, 2017 1:51:04 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Necrogoat  
#13 Posted : Thursday, April 27, 2017 5:14:19 PM(UTC)
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The tank also takes dmg when you draw a crit-card. Otherwise you wont draw a card
Uthak  
#14 Posted : Thursday, April 27, 2017 6:05:58 PM(UTC)
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I know what you guys are saying, that doesn't rewrite the rule text though.
Last page of rule book, the Quick Reference. Right hand side bottom of the pink bracket:
"For each uncanelled Critical Hit draw a Critical card and apply all effects. This may include damage."
The rules couldn't separate effect from damage more clearly.
Camo netting card reads word for word: "+1 armor if stationary. Discard this card the first time this tank takes damage."

If no damage, there is no discard. I know you may consider a Busted Tracks or Bailed Out as "damage" but the rules here too, state clearly that these are effects, not damage. damage is literally only the things that take off your hullpoints.
Necrogoat  
#15 Posted : Thursday, April 27, 2017 6:25:23 PM(UTC)
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Maybe I'm a bit to much into X-Wing
Uthak  
#16 Posted : Thursday, April 27, 2017 6:36:49 PM(UTC)
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As I said, there is a good chance that their intent was to make it "when receiving an uncanceled hit discard this card", its just not what happened.

Anyhow thanks for all the feedback, gets me to read deeper into the rules. And i think between all the people who contribute we got the rules pretty well figured out by now!

would be cool for a HQ member to go through this and just say yes, no, yes, yes, no, hell no, yes to all questions asked.
Mjorr  
#17 Posted : Monday, May 15, 2017 10:56:59 PM(UTC)
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Just on radio coordinator - (thought) as initiative in movement and shooting is determined at beginning of that "phase" for determining actions, so initiative is at "start/first action" of phase, meaning that you could raise initiative of a lost initiative tank back up with another radio coordinator - effectively keeping initiative high.
LordOfKhemri  
#18 Posted : Tuesday, May 16, 2017 1:50:09 AM(UTC)
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Yes indeed :)
Nothing quite like hearing the crackle of a radio telling your shell shocked crew to get their act together.

Also wonderful to get your ISU152 to fire much earlier than it would otherwise do.
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CmdrRook  
#19 Posted : Tuesday, May 16, 2017 3:57:36 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Mjorr Go to Quoted Post
Just on radio coordinator - (thought) as initiative in movement and shooting is determined at beginning of that "phase" for determining actions, so initiative is at "start/first action" of phase, meaning that you could raise initiative of a lost initiative tank back up with another radio coordinator - effectively keeping initiative high.


By this logic, Shell shock, stunned or injured crew would not effect your attack the turn they were received. We know that's not the case.
Mjorr  
#20 Posted : Wednesday, May 17, 2017 12:07:48 AM(UTC)
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All those effects are the "immediate" result of a crit - the initial initiative value at the start of either movement or shooting determines actions so if my initial is "0" (from non repair) then that's the value replaced by the transfer of initiative from radio coordinator(rc). Since the initiative effect is only for that round it does change the underlying initiative value, also since radio coordinator is only actioned at the start of the applicable phase all effects are effective. This means that if multiple radio cords are in a squad then at the start of your shooting phase "ALL" the transferring actions need to be indicated eg tank with rc at initiative 8 has shooting turn nominates tank to transfer and if this tank has rc he nominates tank to receive initiative then first tank takes shooting actions followed by second and then third.
This I think is the way it operates correctly.
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