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JagdWehrwolf  
#1 Posted : Thursday, July 7, 2016 9:53:45 PM(UTC)
JagdWehrwolf

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Gentlemen,
In here and in facebook group there are numerous attemps to houserule tanks that have FoW (and others) models, but lack the official cards. I've also seen someone's post about trying to figure out the points system, but failing. So I decided to have a crack at it myself. Below are the results:
All points modifications take a basic tank of each force as a starting point (M4 in US, Panzer IV in Germany, etc).
1 Initiative - 1 Point (though in case of dropping Ini, no points seem to be deducted from final cost);
1 Attack - 5 Points;
1 Defence - 7 Points;
1 Damage - 1 Point;

Fast - 5 Points;
Big Gun - 5 Points (not enough proof);
Heavy - 8 Points (again, not sure);
Assault Gun - deduct 2 points (unclear);

How did I get these numbers? Starting with 'murricah (F**k Yeah!!!).

M4 as basic with stats: 6 4 1 6 20 Pts.

Step up is M4 (76): 6 5 1 6 25 Pts.

Hence 1 Attack costs 5 pts. And so it goes. Admittedly system does not fully work (usually by an odd point) in some cases (especially with Soviets), but it's pretty close.

Now couple of test runs:

Stuart V (British): 6 2 0 4 Fast (being a recon tank operates on a higher Ini than British Shermans, it's armed with a peashooter, armour is pretty much non existent, but it keeps Sherman V's Damage).

So starting with basic Sherman V: 5 4 1 4 at 15 points, to get to Stuart we'll get +1 Ini (+1 Cost), -2 Attack (-10 Cost), -1 Defence (-7 Cost) and adding Fast (+5 Cost). After some basic maths we're getting Sherman's 15-17+6 equals a whopping 4 Points for Stuart V.
Funnily enough, it shows a small glitch in a system, as if you would start from Cromwell stats, You would come to 5 Points cost for Stuart (personally I think that a price for Fast was reduced on a Cromwell, as You are being forced to choose between using Fast or Semi-Indirect Fire).

One more, Churchill (British), for which I will use stats presented in topic on this subforum:
4 4 3 7 Slow
-1 Ini (no cost return), +2 Defence (+14 Cost), +3 Damage (+3 Cost), Slow (trated as reverse of Fast, -5 Cost) so 15-5+17=27 Points.

What do You think?
thanks 5 users thanked JagdWehrwolf for this useful post.
2938158 on 7/7/2016(UTC), Carlson793 on 7/8/2016(UTC), Garthbo on 7/9/2016(UTC), Uthak on 4/27/2017(UTC), Tenente on 3/8/2018(UTC)
Carlson793  
#2 Posted : Friday, July 8, 2016 12:58:57 AM(UTC)
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Looks pretty close. I'll have to give it a full look when I have more time tonight.
PanzerAndy  
#3 Posted : Friday, July 8, 2016 3:55:26 AM(UTC)
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Guys,

I'm working on a points value list for each country in Excel using a standard tank stat line (Panzer IV, T34 76mm etc) as a base & working out the points difference for the new tank stats.

I have looked at making the Tiger 1 a slow tank with the Heavy tank ability so it only gets to have 1 arrow in the movement phase but still gets to use the Blitzkrieg rule in the command phase.

We are also play testing a "Light Armour" rule for the light tanks so that they still get to roll 1 die in defence but only cancel hits on a 5 or 6.

As soon as I complete the preliminary list completed I'll post in on the forum.
thanks 1 user thanked PanzerAndy for this useful post.
PilGrim on 7/8/2016(UTC)
PilGrim  
#4 Posted : Friday, July 8, 2016 6:19:38 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: PanzerAndy Go to Quoted Post
Guys,

I'm working on a points value list for each country in Excel using a standard tank stat line (Panzer IV, T34 76mm etc) as a base & working out the points difference for the new tank stats.

I have looked at making the Tiger 1 a slow tank with the Heavy tank ability so it only gets to have 1 arrow in the movement phase but still gets to use the Blitzkrieg rule in the command phase.

We are also play testing a "Light Armour" rule for the light tanks so that they still get to roll 1 die in defence but only cancel hits on a 5 or 6.

As soon as I complete the preliminary list completed I'll post in on the forum.


Tigers are not particularly slow Andy - actually they can be pretty nippy in some circumstances due to the wide tracks. They are pretty much on a par with a PzIV for speed



JagdWehrwolf  
#5 Posted : Friday, July 8, 2016 7:25:58 AM(UTC)
JagdWehrwolf

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Originally Posted by: PilGrim Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: PanzerAndy Go to Quoted Post
Guys,

I'm working on a points value list for each country in Excel using a standard tank stat line (Panzer IV, T34 76mm etc) as a base & working out the points difference for the new tank stats.

I have looked at making the Tiger 1 a slow tank with the Heavy tank ability so it only gets to have 1 arrow in the movement phase but still gets to use the Blitzkrieg rule in the command phase.

We are also play testing a "Light Armour" rule for the light tanks so that they still get to roll 1 die in defence but only cancel hits on a 5 or 6.

As soon as I complete the preliminary list completed I'll post in on the forum.


Tigers are not particularly slow Andy - actually they can be pretty nippy in some circumstances due to the wide tracks. They are pretty much on a par with a PzIV for speed





I was thinking about the same. Tiger should not really be slow, but to digress I'd like to ask Guys from Moderation: Would it be possible to create a sticky topic where anyone interested could post their ideas and/or fan-made tank cards?
PilGrim  
#6 Posted : Friday, July 8, 2016 9:00:42 AM(UTC)
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Ok using the above a Ferdinand \ Elefant rated 2-6-3-7 Heavy and Assault Gun would be 46 points. That does feel about right

Edited by user Friday, July 8, 2016 9:04:20 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

hithero  
#7 Posted : Friday, July 8, 2016 9:32:48 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: PilGrim Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: PanzerAndy Go to Quoted Post
Guys,

I'm working on a points value list for each country in Excel using a standard tank stat line (Panzer IV, T34 76mm etc) as a base & working out the points difference for the new tank stats.

I have looked at making the Tiger 1 a slow tank with the Heavy tank ability so it only gets to have 1 arrow in the movement phase but still gets to use the Blitzkrieg rule in the command phase.

We are also play testing a "Light Armour" rule for the light tanks so that they still get to roll 1 die in defence but only cancel hits on a 5 or 6.

As soon as I complete the preliminary list completed I'll post in on the forum.


Tigers are not particularly slow Andy - actually they can be pretty nippy in some circumstances due to the wide tracks. They are pretty much on a par with a PzIV for speed





Yeah, Tiger 1 still does about 24mph, not a lot different to the Sherman. For rule consistency by keeping successes to 4+, I have light tanks A1 but cannot stop Crits, sort of the inverse of Big Gun.
JagdWehrwolf  
#8 Posted : Friday, July 8, 2016 9:50:50 AM(UTC)
JagdWehrwolf

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Originally Posted by: PilGrim Go to Quoted Post
Ok using the above a Ferdinand \ Elefant rated 2-6-3-7 Heavy and Assault Gun would be 46 points. That does feel about right


Why would You give Ferdinand a Heavy? It had only 85mm on the sides.

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PilGrim on 7/10/2016(UTC)
Zerstorer  
#9 Posted : Friday, July 8, 2016 3:23:06 PM(UTC)
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Well using the formula, my ideas for a Lee stat line of 4-4/2-1-4 and assault gun comes out higher then the standard Sherman....but if you factor in my Lee rule giving it -1 defense die when it is in the open as a -5 you get....20 for Sherman -2 initiative, +7 for Attack, -5 for Lee in the open, -2 for lower damage, -2 for assault gun, you get 16 pts for a Lee....which coincides with my card guesstimate of 16 pts when I created the card. Cool! Hoever, the Lee won't always be in the open, but that is canceled out by the fact that it's turret and hull gun might not get to shoot at the same target each turn either!
Warwick  
#10 Posted : Friday, July 8, 2016 4:26:26 PM(UTC)
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Well done gents, I was thinking how I could get some cards for my ( I lost count how many) BF Tanks!

Perhaps a message here for GF9, Most of us don't need tanks, but cards would sell like hot cakes. ie I just gave my Sherman's away from the starter box as I have about 20 already, Sherman's that is.
My 2cents worth.

Warwick
PilGrim  
#11 Posted : Sunday, July 10, 2016 11:00:02 AM(UTC)
PilGrim

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Originally Posted by: JagdWehrwolf Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: PilGrim Go to Quoted Post
Ok using the above a Ferdinand \ Elefant rated 2-6-3-7 Heavy and Assault Gun would be 46 points. That does feel about right


Why would You give Ferdinand a Heavy? It had only 85mm on the sides.

Good point - dropping the Heavy still leaves it as armour 2 on the sides. That would drop it to 38 points

PilGrim  
#12 Posted : Sunday, July 10, 2016 11:07:30 AM(UTC)
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How would you rate a Challenger? I was thinking same stats as a Firefly plus Fast for 26 pts or maybe slightly higher initiative - say 6 for 27pts?

Reasoning - still fairly speedy even if the chassis is overworked and long, higher initiative due to slightly better observation (has a gunners periscope unlike Firefly) and extra loader to keep rate of fire up - also add an extra crew slot???

JagdWehrwolf  
#13 Posted : Sunday, July 10, 2016 8:15:09 PM(UTC)
JagdWehrwolf

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Originally Posted by: PilGrim Go to Quoted Post
How would you rate a Challenger? I was thinking same stats as a Firefly plus Fast for 26 pts or maybe slightly higher initiative - say 6 for 27pts?

Reasoning - still fairly speedy even if the chassis is overworked and long, higher initiative due to slightly better observation (has a gunners periscope unlike Firefly) and extra loader to keep rate of fire up - also add an extra crew slot???



Sounds solid. Drop in Initiative in relation to both Cromwell and Comet works well reflecting higher mass. Also, I think I've read somewhere that Chally had a lousy traverse (though it just might be impression from WoT). It's mobility on paper seems to be on Comet's levels so Fast is also justified.

And talking about Ferdi, in version that I'm toying around it will have Slow. But I post it in a different thread.

PilGrim  
#14 Posted : Sunday, July 10, 2016 8:44:39 PM(UTC)
PilGrim

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Yes I was thinking about Slow - the problem is I don't want to introduce new special rules and abilities at the moment until everyone has a handle on how the game plays - I can see them doing slow and I hope they sort out the teleport movement so that you end up pointing in the direction of movement
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JagdWehrwolf on 7/10/2016(UTC)
PilGrim  
#15 Posted : Sunday, July 10, 2016 8:50:53 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: JagdWehrwolf Go to Quoted Post

Sounds solid. Drop in Initiative in relation to both Cromwell and Comet works well reflecting higher mass. Also, I think I've read somewhere that Chally had a lousy traverse (though it just might be impression from WoT). It's mobility on paper seems to be on Comet's levels so Fast is also justified.



It (traverse speed) gets mentioned in Chaimberlain & Doyle as a problem on the prototype that was addressed by fitting a new Metadyne traverse gear. There dosnt seem to be much mention of it as a problem in service but then again there is little mention of the Chaly anywhere :-)

Conall  
#16 Posted : Sunday, July 10, 2016 9:08:28 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: JagdWehrwolf Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: PilGrim Go to Quoted Post
How would you rate a Challenger? I was thinking same stats as a Firefly plus Fast for 26 pts or maybe slightly higher initiative - say 6 for 27pts?

Reasoning - still fairly speedy even if the chassis is overworked and long, higher initiative due to slightly better observation (has a gunners periscope unlike Firefly) and extra loader to keep rate of fire up - also add an extra crew slot???



Sounds solid. Drop in Initiative in relation to both Cromwell and Comet works well reflecting higher mass. Also, I think I've read somewhere that Chally had a lousy traverse (though it just might be impression from WoT). It's mobility on paper seems to be on Comet's levels so Fast is also justified.

And talking about Ferdi, in version that I'm toying around it will have Slow. But I post it in a different thread.



It should certainly be fast - Challengers could definitely keep up with Cromwells. Never heard about an issue with a slow traverse. The main problems were an initial tendency to shed tracks (longer wheel base from one extra road wheel without a commensurate increase in width), which was fixed by field modifications. Crews didn't like the higher silhouette (still lower than a Firefly) or the relatively thinner armour than the Cromwell. The 17lbr had the same issues as with the Firefly: very high dispersion, flash/blast obscuring fall of shot & rapid barrel wear. Only 200 models were built but once the initial teething problems were resolved they seem to have been relatively effective & worked well with the 75mm Cromwells. 6-5-1-5 is probably about right.

Tom
RJ  
#17 Posted : Sunday, July 10, 2016 9:10:05 PM(UTC)
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Still trying to decide on Tiger stats - desperately want to use them in our Normandy games. Can't seem to get it right though.

Heavy it has to be, but it isn't particularly slow so needs to be 5 initiative probably - but has a very slow turret so maybe it should be 4 (if one wants it higher it needs to have good crew). Obvious 6 attack with 2 armour seems to fit with the heavy.
6 hull (or maybe 7 to show it could take a good pasting).

Any other thoughts/ideas?
Conall  
#18 Posted : Sunday, July 10, 2016 9:45:42 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: RJ Go to Quoted Post
Still trying to decide on Tiger stats - desperately want to use them in our Normandy games. Can't seem to get it right though.

Heavy it has to be, but it isn't particularly slow so needs to be 5 initiative probably - but has a very slow turret so maybe it should be 4 (if one wants it higher it needs to have good crew). Obvious 6 attack with 2 armour seems to fit with the heavy.
6 hull (or maybe 7 to show it could take a good pasting).

Any other thoughts/ideas?


I would have thought 6 initiative (good optics & the turret traverse wasn't especially slow), 5 firepower (88L56 had worse performance than the Panther's 75L70 or the 17lbr), 2 armour - heavy, 6 damage.

6-5-2-6
hithero  
#19 Posted : Sunday, July 10, 2016 9:47:02 PM(UTC)
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I gave it a gun value of 5 as it was comparable to the long 75 on the Panther.
Have given it 8 health due to them supposably being hard to kill as its armour doesn't really justify 3
Initiative 6 just made it one lower than the Panther.
It seems to be working well in the games we have played so far, used 2 of them and a Panther V 2xShermans, 2xFirefly's and a Comet and they won with just one Tiger left sitting on the objective facing off one Sherman. 125pts, 1VP to 0VP, King of the hill, 8 rounds.

Tiger 1 card
JagdWehrwolf  
#20 Posted : Sunday, July 10, 2016 9:59:42 PM(UTC)
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I would drop to 5 Ini (reserving 6 for Tiger II) and to 7 Damage (again 8 for Tiger II). What annoys me though, is that system is bugged again if You compare Tiger I to IS-85.

P.S. Or maybe IS-85 is underpriced??? Comparing to Pershing You get one less Ini, one more Damage AND Heavy for the same price. Comparing to Panther two less Ini, two more Damage AND Heavy, again for the same price. Am I missing something or Coordinated Fire is suppose to be dirty cheap in comparison to Blitzkrieg/Gung-Ho?

Edited by user Sunday, July 10, 2016 10:09:47 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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