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Zeus  
#1 Posted : Sunday, May 21, 2017 11:25:26 PM(UTC)
Zeus

Rank: Gunner

Posts: 25

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Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
This hero card reads:

"When drawing Critical cards for the first uncancelled Critical Hit scored by this tank, draw one additional card. The attacking player chooses one of those Critical cards to discard."

Is this a once-per-game ability, applying to the very first uncanceled critical hit this tank scores in the game? Or does this apply every time the tank scores an uncanceled hit, so usually multiple times over the course of a game?

Please include whether your reply is an official ruling, or the way you interpret it :-).

Thanks, Zeus

Edit: going through the cards, I see the exact same rule applies to several more cards ("Ground Hog" Holler, Sharpshooter Gunner, maybe more cards that I don't own). Also, the Ernst Barkmann card similarly has an ability for which it is unclear (to me anyway) whether it applies only to its first attack of the game, or its first attack each round:

"If this tank does not score any uncanceled hits os or critical hits with its first attack, make another attack."

Edited by user Sunday, May 21, 2017 11:41:08 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Uthak  
#2 Posted : Monday, May 22, 2017 6:43:12 AM(UTC)
Uthak

Rank: Commander

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These weird wording have been causing headaches for a year now, with not every card being clearly explained. When doing my research for my FAQ I found that the wording for Barkman had been verified by HQ members.

I will try to re-condense all cards (OFFICIAL) status:

Global:
Sharpshooter gunner: (The rule you described). Unclear (at least I didn't find an HQ statement on it). However our group is using the ruling for Ernst Barkmann here: if not explicitly stated "first OF THE GAME", the intent is EVERY TURN. This is of course our house ruling for lack of better evidence, but it works well, and makes such cards more interesting. This will get sorted out with an official FAQ, or at least ANY responses from HQ which must've gone silent like 3 months ago and were never heard of again....

German:
Ernst Barkman: If he scores no uncanceled hits, he gets to make another (new) attack. Every turn that is, not just the first.
And yes, re-rolls do apply to both attacks (if applicable at all), for they are independent attacks, not just re-rolls of re-rolls. (this is also true for extra attacks by Bobby Woll / NOT Audie Murphy though, for he has to discard all other crew+upgrades prior to shooting, thus loosing any and all eventual re-rolls for his attack)

Dr. Fr. Ba.: makes a SINGLE arrow move at the beginning of the game, not full movement of the tank he is in.

Otto Carius: His -1 on targets armor and +2 initiative applies even when moving, as in the sentence with being stationary it is clearly stated he gains an extra attack from not moving. Rules stated go sentence by sentence as many other cards show.

USA:
Wardaddy Pool: Unclear how applied. heard many play it as "first of the game", whereas our group rules it, again, like Barkman: unless stated otherwise rules are applied every turn.

Ground Hog Oller: Unclear how applied. Our group rules it, again, like Barkman: unless stated otherwise rules are applied every turn.

England:
Wilfred Harris: Unclear how applied. Our group rules it, again, like Barkman: unless stated otherwise rules are applied every turn.

Russia:
Maria Oktyr.: Changes the (moved) tanks base-armor to two (2), DOES NOT ADD two (2) armour to the tank the is equipped on. Thus an IS-2 will, even when moved, remain at armour 2, whereas an T34 (the tank she drove in WW2) would now be driving around with armour 2.

Vasiliy Kryshov: Gets one (1) defense-die-re-roll per move made in that respective turn. This means for the whole phase, not every instance of being shot at. Example: He is driving a T34 (fast) and moved 3 times. He gets shot at and hit 4 times, cancels 1, now he has 3 re-rolls he can use on this shot (if desired). If he uses all three and gets shot at again (eg 2 uncanceled hits this time), he now has no re-rolls available for his defense-rolls. He moved three times and gets three re-rolls, to be distributed as desired. but if shot at 15 times he cant re-roll 15 times.

Kommissar: Unclear how applied. Our group rules it literally: He himself counts as a Crew-Upgrade, so does AMMO etc., therefor he can shoot himself or even the ammo on board to re-instill morale. Sounds dumb, but that's how the card reads.

___________________________________

PS: Generally my group comes from a rather competitive background in other games, therefor we interpret cards not logically, but literally. If it says A it means A, no matter what intent B is. Cards are in the game to reflect an intended rule, not fluff-text. A blatant example is the card Bailed Out, as of right now Bailed Out tanks can still hold objectives etc, not very logicall, but the trick is to read the card as its rules (cant move, cant shoot), not as its name "bailed out". This is not to dictate how you should rule, but to explain why/how we derive our rule-interpretation.

This, as any other ruling, needs an official statement though. I marked unclear rulings in bold, however you want to interpret them is up to your group until official clarification arrives. Further I want to add, that our house rules are not water-tight, as EG "best job I ever had" clearly states "every/each turn" (rather than an exempt-line like "of the game"), therefor these cards can be interpreted however. We stuck with the general Barkmann ruling, because that is the once instance HQ actually responded and clarified that it applies every turn unless stated otherwise.

Zeus  
#3 Posted : Monday, May 22, 2017 10:56:20 PM(UTC)
Zeus

Rank: Gunner

Posts: 25

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Thanks again for your quick and thorough reply!

In the heat of the battle, whether it's beer (well, cola for me actually :-) ) and pretzels at home or the final in a tournament, any unclear rule can be contested, so I agree that clear and consistent text is important. With so little dev input here it is hard to gauge what their intent for certain cards is.
Uthak  
#4 Posted : Tuesday, May 23, 2017 11:36:40 AM(UTC)
Uthak

Rank: Commander

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Agreed! Good questions Zeus! I'm getting growingly frustrated with HQ's lack of any clarification upon inquiries for the last months... I too think that exact ruling is important, no matter if played as coke & pretzels (lol) or competitive play. In casual gaming it might seem less important, but at the peak of the battle, when a certain ruling may make the difference in the general outcome, even the most beer&pretzely guy becomes touchy when his opponent suddenly tells him that his "bailed out" tank cant hold an objective and ignore further crew-effect critical cards (because bailed out) because he feels that's more true to "realism"...
Such arguments at so very easy to avoid by just being responsive (from HQ) and clarifying the questions asked here w/o 3 month windows between answers.

Generally I would argue any game benefits largely from clear ruling - avoiding any possible frustration (in whatever scenario/setting your gaming style is).

___________

In these cases its also not just a "minor question", but really important whether you equip tanks with one-shot-actions or all-the-time benefits. I don't get why I get told all the time that this is a game for b&p and about "fun", so I should back off with my rule-fetish.
I for my part want to play the game as intended with everyone involved being at the same level of rule-knowledge and agreement, and not needing to refrain to ever new houserules in every different store you may enter/crowd you may join.
Having house rules to change certain aspects of a working-game is fine, but needing house rules just to make the basic game playable because of imminent rule-questions (over a year after release) is a terrible design flaw (imo).
How do you enjoy when every player on the table perceives rules differently and you find yourselves in stupid arguments 50% of the times - and yes, this happens in games that are just for fun. If you play your neighbor for fun and you both write your roosters with individual understanding of rules and then clash over OP (or absolutely useless wastes of points), because the cards themselves are unclear - that is simply disruptive and has nothing to do with whether you play in a tournament or, as said, a training game with your neighbor...
On that note I don't even understand the point of "just-for-fun" vs not-for-fun... I guess?! as if competitive players don't play for fun.. I think maybe some people are fine with playing with vague rulings, but how can that be perceived as fun whereas thorough rule-sets are perceived as not-fun? Its like playing a round of Poker and someone claiming that you should all be dealt 12 cards and then chose your favorite 2 of them, because that's his interpretation of the rules? Of course you can wing it, but why not clarify rules? why then even have rules? Maybe me as a German I don't get the idea of fun in games without comprehensive and explicit rule-sets :D
Andrew at Tanks HQ  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, June 13, 2017 3:14:07 PM(UTC)
Andrew at Tanks HQ

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Originally Posted by: Zeus Go to Quoted Post
This hero card reads:

"When drawing Critical cards for the first uncancelled Critical Hit scored by this tank, draw one additional card. The attacking player chooses one of those Critical cards to discard."

Is this a once-per-game ability, applying to the very first uncanceled critical hit this tank scores in the game? Or does this apply every time the tank scores an uncanceled hit, so usually multiple times over the course of a game?

Please include whether your reply is an official ruling, or the way you interpret it :-).

Thanks, Zeus

Edit: going through the cards, I see the exact same rule applies to several more cards ("Ground Hog" Holler, Sharpshooter Gunner, maybe more cards that I don't own). Also, the Ernst Barkmann card similarly has an ability for which it is unclear (to me anyway) whether it applies only to its first attack of the game, or its first attack each round:

"If this tank does not score any uncanceled hits os or critical hits with its first attack, make another attack."


Hey guys,

Sorry for the late replies we been really busy here at BF and I have not had the time to go through the forum as I would like, but I am getting back into the swing of things and will responded to more as I have more time.


First off good question.

In tanks if an ability is a once per game ability it will ether state that or require you to discard the card.

Some cards will have a setup ability that is inherently once per game and does not need a clarification.

If a card refers to "the first" it means the first time during that step. So a rule that says "Your first Critical Hit" that is the first Critical Hit you made during the shooting step.

Likewise if a card does not state first, like one that gives you a re-roll on a defense die, this applies to each time the tank is defending during that step.

Now for Wilfred Harris his ability this applies to the first Critical Hit you get each turn.

-Andrew

Edited by user Tuesday, June 13, 2017 3:17:27 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

thanks 2 users thanked Andrew at Tanks HQ for this useful post.
Uthak on 6/17/2017(UTC), MaOle on 2/12/2018(UTC)
Uthak  
#6 Posted : Saturday, June 17, 2017 12:25:06 PM(UTC)
Uthak

Rank: Commander

Posts: 95

Thanks: 11 times
Was thanked: 24 time(s) in 13 post(s)
Thank you kindly sir!

I had all but given up on the prospect of official involvement in the questions posted here. Wondering why there was a "rules" segment to post "questions" if there are no answers.
Again: thanks for clarifying this and welcome back to the board!

PS: I hope you find time to clarify some of the many other questions posted here.
bartok  
#7 Posted : Friday, February 9, 2018 10:27:52 PM(UTC)
bartok

Rank: Gunner

Posts: 14

Here the pic
UserPostedImage

Edited by user Friday, March 23, 2018 3:22:34 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Better resolution

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